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Old 12-11-2012, 20:49   #211
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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Jezz.. I leave for a few hours and now I have to catch up. Rukuflames, if I have insulted anyone with my contentious style which has the tendency not to suffer fools its because of the seriousness of the subject matter. No one should take it personally. I learned a long time ago that if you engage in conversation on the Internet you better develop a thick skin. Frankly this site is rather tame compared to the political forums I have frequented. You can thank your Moderators for that. I’ll try to tone it down but don’t count on it.

Your opening hatch dilemma should not be a dilemma at all. If you are bringing your boat up to Blue Water spec’s get rid of the plastic and replace with bronze, stainless steel or aluminum. No need to close them all up and make them non opening. My ports and hatches are SS and I have no intention to change them but if I were to go across the pond I would carry a few hatch and port boards that can be fastened in a hurry if one was stove in. That’s my left brain at work. Besides, plywood is cheap.

So you live in Tampa and want to seal them ALL up? Christ, what will you do if your AC quits? Replace them with metal opening ports and hatches and rest easy.

RT
PS Seaworthiness implies boat. Skill and experience refers to the skipper. Both important but different and separate considerations.
PS -- remember when you admonished someone to read more carefully?

I have no "opening hatch" problem. I said that if I were going to be caught in very rough seas I might make extra efforts to tighten mine down. Could be all sorts of reasons for that -- maybe something as simple as -- oh, I don't know -- a leak that's stayed a tick or two lower on the list than more urgent things? Maybe?
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Old 12-11-2012, 20:51   #212
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I'll repeat it again. There are of course certain production models that are poorly built. But they are few and getting fewer. You don't need ( or want) full keels or barn door rudders to have a blue water boat. They are thinking from a different age. Most reasonably built production boats are of such quality as to be more then sufficient for prudent so called water sailing">blue water sailing. Thats all you need , you may want more, that's your prerogative.

I've sailed gazillions of miles , and delivered almost exclusively production boats. I can tell you the skipper makes a huge difference.

The fact is most production boats in the hands of a prudent and competent skipper are blue water capable. That's a simple fact based on what's is being used and where they are sailing today.

The rest is rubbish put forth by people that in my experience simply read too many books a d haven't got enough actual experience. When I hear people talking about removing opening port lights I just laugh and shake my head. Are these people for real. Have you been in a knock down or a roll or talked first hand to those that have. I've be far more worried about the batteries flying around then the port light leaking. The biggest factor showing inexperience is an inane focusing on things that in real life don't matter ( like full keels)

Too many people read alard Coles or Marchaj as if its some sort of bible no more then people quote the Pardys as if they are the only way to do things. Yet often all this information is dated or is specific to a vessel type or a particular way of thinking. People then latch on to " ideas" as if somehow,that will protect them when they themselves f€ck up. The same people search for particular solution in heavy weather, again not realising there are no specific solutions only experience and an understanding of ones boat.

How certain people can fly in the face of what's. actually being sailed out here every day. !!!

It's like people telling you there safer in a SUV, when for example NCAP testing says otherwise. It's beggars beleive.

Dave
"When I hear people talking about removing opening port lights I just laugh and shake my head."

And THERE's the evidence that at least for some people, newer sailors and boat owners aren't fully welcome here.

You CHOSE to laugh. You could have made the very helpful comments others made. At least own your choices.
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:02   #213
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Cabability

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I just think there's a more effective way to not suffer fools gladly, and since we're all fools on occasion -- watch out for that glass house!
Please leave the glass houses out of it, I built one and have been living in it for the last 20 years, That includes two glass roofs or ceilings, Hahahahaha
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:03   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"When I hear people talking about removing opening port lights I just laugh and shake my head."

And THERE's the evidence that at least for some people, newer sailors and boat owners aren't fully welcome here.

You CHOSE to laugh. You could have made the very helpful comments others made. At least own your choices.
Sorry, I've no problem with you or others saying ,"Hi I've a concern about X , and I don't know, could you help me." I personally have answered dozens and dozens of such posts That's fine. It's when you enter a discussion about bluewater boats and make quite frankly silly statements about removing port lights as if there are a death trap issue. This on the back of your acknowledged inexperience. That's when I critise. It's quite frankly easy to see the people with serious offshore experience, there are the ones that in general agreement with the majority of others who equally have such experience. It's the " outliers" that persist in making dogmatic statements that show up inexperience.

Ask questions, seek advice , by all means, but dogmatic pronouncements , well you need to be seriously use of your ground

Dave
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:16   #215
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Is there a 12 step program for getting out of this dumbass thread? I keep trying but I just can't quit. Help me Jesus!
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:42   #216
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Anchors, guns, and what is a bluewater boat?
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Old 13-11-2012, 03:55   #217
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Is there a 12 step program for getting out of this dumbass thread? I keep trying but I just can't quit. Help me Jesus!
I am not sure if introducing religion into the thread is helpful.....

A Bluewater boat - WWJD?
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Old 13-11-2012, 04:02   #218
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I am not sure if introducing religion into the thread is helpful.....

A Bluewater boat - WWJD?
Wouldnt need one LOL - walks on water I heard.
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Old 13-11-2012, 04:03   #219
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

I hope we can keep it cool as I think this is an important thread, especially for some of the newer sailors that come to this forum with ideas about what boat they should buy, or god forbid – build.


I want to see if we can perform a little Wikipedia style Disambiguation for the concept of “Bluewater Capable”.


It seems that really there are several concepts being bundled together under this one term and I see these two concepts intermingled: Craftmanship and Ruggedness. If we break this down it might explain why there are such vastly different opinions.


Craftmanship: How well a boat is built. There is a huge difference in craftsmanship between an Oyster and a Bavaria for example.


Ruggedness: How strong a boat is built. At one end of the scale would be an Island Packet, the other a Macgregor 25.


While both the extremes of ruggedness and craftsmanship definitely play a role in a vessels capability most boats that any rationale person would consider bluewater capable fall somewhere in the middle region of these categories and therefore the categories themselves are not indicators of bluewater capability - Even though many people in this thread and others are using them as such defining aspects of a “Bluewater Capable” boat!

Take the Volvo boats – they are designed for purpose and one could actually argue still that they are not bluewater capable if you take the ruggedness aspect too far. They are designed for 1 RTW at race pace – only. They are weight optimized for that as any extra build specs would be unnecessary weight for their purpose. If I told you a production boat could only make it around once and then would be unsuitable as a cruising vessel would you call it bluewater capable? I doubt it, but would anyone argue that the Volvos are not Bluewater capable even though they are designed only just so?


The same holds true for the concept of the older heavier boats built prior to Naval Architect’s and Engineer’s full understanding of the capabilities of fiberglass hulls. But think, if you only need 1” of bulletproof glass to stop a bullet - is a 2” thick window better? No, it is just thicker. It may make you feel safer but the other window is designed and engineered for the job – it is fit for purpose.


Do the modern production boats fall apart more quickly? In many cases - Yes. Does that mean they are not fit for purpose, No. Would I rather hit a log or container in a full keel boat or a Fin keel w/ Skeg – obviously a full keel - I have hit a sumberged metal 50gal drum in a 50' cat at 8kts and ghosted into a log larger than the boat in a wooden full keel boat doing 2kts. Neither experience was enjoyable - but boath boats and crews survived unscathed.


Like in the other threads where there is a school that wants to make purchase or design decision solely on the worst case scenarios – you cant make a boat decision only for this scenario – there are many more situations that are life threatening that one can encounter besides this. You are far more likely to hurt yourself, by a thousand or a million fold, falling off your boat in the marina and smashing your head on the dock than you are going to be injured or killed by lightening, storm, or submerged object.


There are many aspects of ruggedness and craftsmanship that are confused with bluewater capability. There are also many aspects of historic design limitations based on incomplete knowledge of material strengths and incomplete knowledge of hydro-dynamics that are confused with being superior design – there is and always will be a bit of the traditionalist and luddite in the sailing community. I suffer from it myself – I refused to buy a modern aluminium boat because the ones built by the French 30 years ago are thicker and stronger, even if needlessly so. But I also did it cause it was cheaper. Do I walk up to an Ovni owner and tell him his boat is not fit for purpose? No. Ok maybe a little, I am a boat owner after all we cant help it. Doesn’t mean I am right.


The bottom line is that most hulls produced nowadays for the purpose of coastal cruising are also fit for purpose as bluewater vessels. Do some take more modifications in rigging and systems to be suitable – yes. Older vessels were designed the way they were due to design and material knowledge of the day – not because the industry has lost the magic of their elders or because there is some conspiracy.


The last thing that I will keep banging the drum about is the the fact that the skipper and crew play the single largest role for bluewater capability. When saying this obviously I am not endorsing boats that arent fit for purpose. Yes a good crew and skipper can sail a bathtub across the pacific - but that is an extreme example and not relevant to the discussion at hand. When we say that capability is more a definition of skipper and crew we are talking about the middle road in terms of boats and design. A bullet proof idealized bluewater capable boat with a foolish skipper and crew will likely survive a storm but the soft fleshy bits inside will not - the boat is still obviously bluewater capable.


Last thing and then I will stop typing - no novice sailor in combination with any boat of any design would be considered bluewater capable, even if they are succesful at crossing an ocean. It is the combination of the boat and organics that create the concept of Bluewater Capable - and most boats meet thier end of the equation.
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Old 13-11-2012, 04:15   #220
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

There seems to be a lot of debate on what boats are blue water capable. Another whole concept to consider is "should people only go offshore in whatever are considered 'blue water' capable boats"? Bear in mind this concept is continually changing.

People put their lives at risk every day they get in a car. I am all for maximizing safety in the often somewhat risky sports I love participating in, but being at sea involves risk in itself. Blue water capability is a sliding scale, not an absolute. And it is up to the individual to decide just how safe they want to try and make it (and I feel that depends equally on sailing skills as well as boat characteristics).
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Old 13-11-2012, 04:19   #221
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Wouldnt need one LOL - walks on water I heard.
Nah, I think that just negates the need for a liferaft .
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Old 13-11-2012, 05:03   #222
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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I hope we can keep it cool as I think this is an important thread, especially for some of the newer sailors that come to this forum with ideas about what boat they should buy, or god forbid – build.

These threads don't really help newbies! All it does is confuse them and reinforce a sense of fear of the ocean so that they believe the vocal minority of posters in that only the old brick sh*t house boats have a chance to survive in the open ocean. It is just fear based dressed up to sound as the only logic a sane person should follow.

For newbies that are here researching boats the problem is even harder as to boat type. This is because they probably have done more than just internet research and have read some boat books also. These books of course are all pretty outdated and were written based on the boats that were out there at the time. So they get recommendations based on a boat book written in the 80s that now only recommends boats built in the 70s!

I know that where I started as a newbie here I followed right along this line of thinking. If you search my posts back far enough you will find that I believed it was best to get an old 80s boat and refit it than get a newer design boat. But I hung in there after getting my first boat and did more real research with my eyes open instead of using CF and old book lens to cloud me.

In the end what I found was that most (I say most because there may be someone that isn't) production boats are built just like what all the books say a good blue-water boat is suppose to construction (the part the company makes). The difference mostly is the hull design because that has evolved and you either think you are smarted that the designers or you accept that they know more about it than you (or some book writer). The other item is the mistrust of the liner method for the interior, but that now is pretty proven to not be a problem.

Production boat manufacturers makes lots of models aimed at all different levels of sailing. Yet everyone talks about brands instead of models. And even then unless the boat truly is a day sailer, the difference really isn't the boat, it is the fit out for use! You have to fit out your boat to meet your planned use of it.

So here is my advise to people who ask the question "is this boat blue-water capable", why do you think the boat isn't? For you those questions are the things to address. If you can not address the questions the boat isn't capable for you (the only one that matters)

For those that no matter what are choosing their boat based on fear I ask you this; why is it so important to you that everyone else follow you in this fear approach?

All I can say is that I got over my fear and now have a nice comfortable boat that meets my needs. I'm willing to take it anywhere that I willing to go as my personal fear is the limiting thing. I know my boat will still floating long after the conditions have exceeded my max fear point.
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Old 13-11-2012, 05:12   #223
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

Foolish,

I like your split. I tried to make a point earlier about how often we read about modern boats going down. Actually it is quite rare. If we take the chart on Bethandevans.com regarding just how dangerous bluewater sailing is - we find out it is just slightly more dangerous than golf. So let's be serious.

Most boats, unless extreme, will make it across an ocean. Some with more comfort, some with less (remember the endless arguments about deck salons types being unable to sail across oceans? Guess what. Lot's of them out here).

I have a modern boat and I will be circumnavigating in it. Fin keel, blade rudder (oh my god! he's gonna go down!). Will I have a problem if I hit a container? You betcha. But probably I'll survive since I intend to carry the various accruements necessary to repair almost anything at sea.

I think we need to move forward from the notion (luddites) that only the way things were done in the past are good. Modern boats will survive most things you throw at them. The crew may not - but that is a different story.
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Old 13-11-2012, 08:55   #224
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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These threads don't really help newbies!
Hi Don, I respectfully disagree. I'm trying to learn as much as I can from those of you that seem to know which end is up about boats.
May I present this quote as an example of good advice learned here;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
So here is my advise to people who ask the question "is this boat blue-water capable", why do you think the boat isn't? For you those questions are the things to address. If you can not address the questions the boat isn't capable for you (the only one that matters)
So you see, I think newbies can learn by reading this thread, and picking out what is right for them.
-Bruce
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Old 13-11-2012, 09:08   #225
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Re: Bluewater Cruising Capability

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Would I rather hit a log or container in a full keel boat or a Fin keel w/ Skeg – obviously a full keel - I have hit a sumberged metal 50gal drum in a 50' cat at 8kts and ghosted into a log larger than the boat in a wooden full keel boat doing 2kts. Neither experience was enjoyable - but boath boats and crews survived unscathed.
I'll take issue with the point I've quoted above, having rammed a good log or two in my time. Most of the larger production boats these days, and I'm talking specifically about HunterBeneLinas, not to mention Juneaus, et cetera, have kevlar reinforced hulls with collision bulkheads in the bow. While the spade rudder in a fin-keel design is admittedly more vulnerable than in full-keel designs, it's becoming standard procedure for distance cruisers to carry a spare rudder, such as the Scanmar SOS rudder that I carry. But as far as stoving in the hull is concerned, you're more likely to do that in a wooden full keel boat than a modern production boat built for ocean travel.
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