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Old 25-08-2009, 07:11   #61
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As to using x-rays to inspect standing rigging - having been a professional rigger for a dozen or more years - it is not done! The cost and other factors make just replacing the rigging cheaper. The other factors include having to remove significant amounts of the interior of the boat to get to the chain plates. Some boat designers have orientated the chain plate edgewise to the outer hull to avoid have bolts penetrating the outer hull. These would be near impossible for an x-ray machine to get a 'shot' of as there is no room for the equipment.
- - As mentioned by others - dye checking is very good for inspecting turnbuckles, studs, and tang plates. The dye kit is available from small airplane supply houses and not expensive nor difficult to use. Stays and shroud wire age can be deduced by the looseness of the wire versus the amount the turnbuckles have been tightened. Wire stretches over time and use and the turnbuckles are tightened periodically to keep the rigging in tune. If the Turnbuckles are nearly all the way tight and the wire is loose, then there is a high probability that the wire is "maxed out" and needs to be replaced.
- - When purchasing an old boat (15 years +) replacing the wire should be a high priority unless it can be proved that the wire is less than 10 years old. Oh! the ten years figure has to do with the totally typical average sailboat and owner who does nothing to maintain and keep the rigging tuned. Kind of like the average car owner who just runs his car until it quits versus the car owner who religiously maintains the schedule of servicing and gets 10 times the life out of the machine.
- - A boat that has un-tuned or loose rigging and has been sailed that way can also have significant damage to the mast and mast attachment points for rigging and spreaders. That should be seriously inspected as flopping spreaders can fail and if under load the whole mast can go out of column and fail. (see the U-tube's on racing masts fracturing in half).
- - In reality, chainplates and tangs can be visually inspected and the probability of failure accurately assessed if you know what to look for and are familiar with stainless steel corrosion processes. And more than likely the bolts holding the chainplates to the hull - especially through the hull bolts - will fail first. Any rigging part with threads and nuts after being allowed to get wet will develop intragranular corrosion and fracture easily. Keeping water away from buried chainplates and bolts is critical. The use of anti-spalling products such as Lan-a-cote and Tuffgel significantly increases the useful life of the fitting.
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Old 25-08-2009, 08:23   #62
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One of the first jobs I did upon purchasing Rhosyn Mor was to replace the rigging. Once you get into the maintenance cycle its not to onerous. plus if you do it yourself its not expensive, the advent of norseman or staylok fittings has made it very possible to change out your rigging whenever you want. As an aside, I did up the size of my lifelines to the same as the standing rigging, left them bare, not covered,switched the turnbuckles over for staylok fittings, so now my spare shrouds are lifelines, a couple of cable clamps to ensure the correct length and away you go a decent jury rig to get you home.
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Old 25-08-2009, 09:06   #63
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If nothing else sailors are prudent, inventive and waste nothing that can be used elsewhere. - witness Roshyn Mor. If you are using Staylok fittings it is suggested that you also purchase some spare studs with the "extra long" screws - Should a shroud part - normally happens at or near a terminal - you can install the extra long stud and be on your way quickly. As a back up for failures in mid wire, the ss cable/wire clamps are very handy to splice in a temporary piece of something to get you to the next safe harbor.
- - Another new option for lifelines and the problem of the vinyl coating cracking is to use the new ultra strong hi-tech line (rope/cord) in place of the steel wire.
- - Rigging is not rocket science and the books and videos by Brian Toss explain everything you need to know. The videos are so good I made my customers watch them as part of a rigging job so they would know how to maintain and inspect their rigging when they were "out there" by themselves.
- - Also you can use British "Dyform" wire instead of 1x19 and increase your shroud/stay strength by 30% and reduce stretch by about 20% for the same size wire. Norseman and Staylock have a different "cone" for this wire so be sure to specify the wire you will be using when buying. Also be careful as some will try to sell your 308 stainless wire vesus the more expensive 316 stainless. Dyform only comes in 316 stainless.
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Old 25-08-2009, 10:42   #64
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NB You can buy for speed even if your boat is a small clunker. Example: A small slow clunker (e.g. a small Westsail 28, with all due respect) will sail 0 (zero knots) in anything below Force 2. At the same time an Ericson 28 will sail 2-3 knots if the right sail used. If you are trying to dodge a small system (a tropical low) that is 200 NM across and moves at 10-15 knots in the Ericson (provided you do have radiofax or other good source of weather) you can make enough miles to move away to the less dangerous part of the system. In a Westsail you sit and wait. Sitting and waiting is very bad for your mindset. Taking action, trying, relieves some stress.

Much more difficult in more N/S latitudes, where systems are much more extensive. But there you can use Ericson's speed when running to escape the impact of the breaking seas. In a Westsail each and every wave will punish your boat. I know it because my own boat is more like a Westsail than like an Ericson.

I am not trying to persuade - but perhaps sailors with an active personality should look for such 'active' boats, while the 'let's sit down and see what happens' ones should sail the more punch-resistant designs. But since the worst punch we received was exactly when we sat waiting (hove-to, soon knocked-down) now I am more willing to listen to those who say let's try to outrun the system, and I believe even a small advantage of 100 or 150 miles can make the difference in the tropics.

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Old 25-08-2009, 11:10   #65
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Dan, you are of course right, technically it isn't a plumb bow. I just consider it close enough to lump it in, rather than fuss over a lot of gray areas. I suppose if you put the whole crew on the transom you can just plain old LIFT the bow far enough to make it ride above the waves.<G>
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Old 25-08-2009, 12:07   #66
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like the harley guys say if i have to explain it you wont understand
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Old 25-08-2009, 16:35   #67
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
- - As to Steve Dashew's suggestion to build for speed as a weather safety factor, his is really talking about his large type boats that can do 20kts not the smaller boats. A large fractions of ocean storms travel at about 15 kts so "outrunning" is feasible if you can keep up your speed. Another factor he does not mention is the ability underway to get live satellite and weather information, again if you can afford his size boats you can afford the satellite domes and costs.
This is really ridiculous. Look at me, here I am, I have a Sundeer 64 and I just use Winlink which is free, no satellite domes and their costs.

You must understand that Sundeer owners are sailors and cruisers, just like you, but they have the budget to spend 400-600k on the boat (not more than many, many catamaran cruisers paid for their boat!). Yes, I might be able to afford the domes and the costs, but I couldn't sleep anymore when I would get the bill!
Don't mix us up with owners of 60+' Oysters, Swans etc. with their crews. They paid 2-5 times as much for those palaces.

You have 5 days notice on approaching hurricanes when you have at least a SSB receiver (and you're nuts if you cross oceans without at least that). All boats can change course to get out of the way, you don't have to outrun them at all, which is a stupid idea and anyone who actually studied navigation learned the right techniques to seek the less dangerous quadrant etc. which means you don't try to keep ahead; you try to get out of the way. 50 nm from the center of the storm is way different already and a couple of hundred means you have no trouble at all.

Sundeers can take it a step up and seek favorable winds near the path of the storms (sailing towards it a bit) instead of staying far away and that is what Dashew does/did (he's a motor-boater now ;-) You can see him do that on one of his video's, sailing from the south Pacific back to California.

ciao!
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Old 25-08-2009, 19:18   #68
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I would also seriously differentiate between two types of 'long keel' - the one you find on a Hans Christian vs. the one you can see on a Hana ketch or a Westsail 32. I mean - when you look from the side the difference is not all that obvious but try looking fro the bow - they are completely different. The former design will have twice the displacement of the latter one. And they will sail in completely different ways.

Personally, I consider the newer design (HCh) safer - faster, less prone to capsize, easier to control in all sailing conditions (when we still do have the control). And the next step is to give up some rudder protection but further gain 'sailability' - like in the long keel + substantial skeg modalities of Valliant, Crealock or HR.

Have seen too many 'heavy displacement - long keel' boats in trouble while other, newer designs went thru the same storms just slightly battered and bruised (I am aware that owners' attitudes to handling heavy weather could be a huge factor here) . My own boat is the Hans Christian type of design, but I would probably upgrade to the Valliant configuration, if I were ever go for another boat.

And Open 60 are extreme light yet they go thru conditions that would wipe out most Collin Archers ;-))). I mean it, they are great boats too, just bit expensivish ;-(.

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Old 25-08-2009, 19:49   #69
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Nick is right. If you think you can out sail weather forecasts then you can have at it. You take the weather and predict where you can be soonest. I'm not going to gamble of the average speed of a hurricane.
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Old 27-08-2009, 08:12   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Have seen too many 'heavy displacement - long keel' boats in trouble while other, newer designs went thru the same storms just slightly battered and bruised (I am aware that owners' attitudes to handling heavy weather could be a huge factor here) . My own boat is the Hans Christian type of design, but I would probably upgrade to the Valliant configuration, if I were ever go for another boat.

And Open 60 are extreme light yet they go thru conditions that would wipe out most Collin Archers ;-))). I mean it, they are great boats too, just bit expensivish ;-(.

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Yep. Too bad it's upside down.

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Old 27-08-2009, 09:06   #71
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and that is why a westsail 32 made it thru the perfect storm correct side up and masts intact LOL
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Old 27-08-2009, 09:14   #72
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And for those who like the Collin Archer version of the picture (which I love!) I can send you guys to contact NZ coastguard - 17 boats lost in the NZ / the Islands passage over last 15 years - at least 12 of which 'long keel heavy displacement'.

True said the average speed of the hurricane does not count - the actual case does - yet the average does not have to be gambled - it can be retrieved from NHC NOAA data. But without weather services support from NHC or any other reliable source the weather dodging can hardly be done (even in a 60ft skiff). Still a lot can be done to move the boat about - but the boat has to be a movable one, not a heavy displacement, long keel clunker (which is the most beautiful boat to have, in the harbour).

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Old 27-08-2009, 09:51   #73
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And for those who like the Collin Archer version of the picture (which I love!) I can send you guys to contact NZ coastguard - 17 boats lost in the NZ / the Islands passage over last 15 years - at least 12 of which 'long keel heavy displacement'.

True said the average speed of the hurricane does not count - the actual case does - yet the average does not have to be gambled - it can be retrieved from NHC NOAA data. But without weather services support from NHC or any other reliable source the weather dodging can hardly be done (even in a 60ft skiff). Still a lot can be done to move the boat about - but the boat has to be a movable one, not a heavy displacement, long keel clunker (which is the most beautiful boat to have, in the harbour).

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B,
Can you post a link to this NZ CG info. It sounds interesting.

Paul L
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Old 27-08-2009, 11:10   #74
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And for those who like the Collin Archer version of the picture (which I love!) I can send you guys to contact NZ coastguard - 17 boats lost in the NZ / the Islands passage over last 15 years - at least 12 of which 'long keel heavy displacement'.

True said the average speed of the hurricane does not count - the actual case does - yet the average does not have to be gambled - it can be retrieved from NHC NOAA data. But without weather services support from NHC or any other reliable source the weather dodging can hardly be done (even in a 60ft skiff). Still a lot can be done to move the boat about - but the boat has to be a movable one, not a heavy displacement, long keel clunker (which is the most beautiful boat to have, in the harbour).

b.

Unless you have a boat that can consistently surpass hull speed- full skimming dish configuration- it really doesn't matter if you have a full keel or not, nor, within reason, what your displacement is. Any boat that'll do hull speed in 20 kts is pretty much equivalent in the ability to outrun the weather- the one variable is waterline length.

After the weather arrives, do you really want to be in a mixmaster?

Heavy, withen reason, doesn't necessarily equate with "slow" and a full keel doesn't necessarily equate with unmanoeverable "clunker".But a flat bottom and a skinny fin keel does make things more interesting in heavy weather- and not in a good way.
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Old 27-08-2009, 11:20   #75
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Unless you have a boat that can consistently surpass hull speed- full skimming dish configuration- it really doesn't matter if you have a full keel or not, nor, within reason, what your displacement is. Any boat that'll do hull speed in 20 kts is pretty much equivalent in the ability to outrun the weather- the one variable is waterline length.

After the weather arrives, do you really want to be in a mixmaster?

Heavy, withen reason, doesn't necessarily equate with "slow" and a full keel doesn't necessarily equate with unmanoeverable "clunker".But a flat bottom and a skinny fin keel does make things more interesting in heavy weather- and not in a good way.
Absolutely.

Many heavy-keeled boats (in particular, the ones with a cutaway forefoot) have easily driven hulls. My Tayana 37 for example (22,000 lbs displacement) approaches hull speed in 15 knots, given some attention to sail trim. A lot of people confuse hull speed with acceleration. My Tayana would be a lousy racer because her modified full keel makes her slow to accelerate. Hull speed, by contrast, is an absolute -- or near absolute -- unless we're talking about, as S&S observes, a non-displacement hull, ala the upturned Open 60 above.
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