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Old 21-08-2009, 16:36   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
.....
>> Masts rigging and equipment "one size bigger",
not if originally designed for blue water, yes in case of many weekend boats marketed "Category Ocean" - but can you effectively make it one size bigger then? I seriously doubt it - it would take replacing all mast tangs, chainplates, etc., a task to be avoided, if not at all mission impossible,
....
This is a typical mistake made by folks who don't look at a boat as a total system. Many will say they need heavy, highly stable boat, then want to add weight in the rig. Just the thing to reduce the stability of the beast. It takes a lot of keel weight 5ft below the water to counter act weight 40ft up the stick.

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>> Flared bow shape to keep drier,
disagree, flared bow is a disaster upwind in heavy wether - the boat just stops every time breaking seas are big enough, but it is nice to have the drier boat - still, ours is a narrow entry, 2ft topsides and sails very dry,
b.
And what happens with that flared top when the waves start landing on it? They drive the bow down. The flares may look very nautical, but they aren't useful for small boats.

Paul L
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Old 21-08-2009, 16:36   #32
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You don't need a full keel for good tracking and beamy is the last thing you want. Beamy boats are no good in bad conditions.

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Old 21-08-2009, 21:54   #33
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Just my 2c:
At least 35' long
Skinny- Beam 1/4 LOA or less.
Deep full keel- say what you like about manoeverability, but they're unsurpassed for heaving to and when done well track nicely ( we're not doing 'round the buoys)
Displacement /length in the 300's- on the heavy side, but not a barge.
The ability to keep enough sail to keep you moving.
Moderately low freeboard ( read pretty low by modern standards) You'll be happer if a breaker hits you.
Moderate overhangs, no flare but full enough ends to provide reserve buoyancy- counter sterns are nicer than sugar scoops going down wind in bad weather.
A "heavy" rig will give easier motion in a seaway (tau x r) if the boat was built for it.
Small windows
Small bunks with leecloths ( funny how you never see these anymore at the boat shows).

I'm not a fan of beamy, "stiff" boats for bad weather- they usually have more violent motion and a smaller angle of vanishing stability than skinny "tender" boats that rely more on keel weight than form to hold up to sail forces (learn to love a tilted world- rail meat not required)

Can other boats cross oceans? Sure, but I'm not a fan of unnecessary mortification.
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Old 22-08-2009, 13:16   #34
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How many folks would scrounge up the money to go "one size bigger"...and then STILL remember to replace the rigging every maybe tenth year as it ages? Aging being more of a concern than original size, these days.
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Old 22-08-2009, 17:48   #35
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
How many folks would scrounge up the money to go "one size bigger"....
I so agree with you. Money. If we had the money that everyone seems to think is necessary wouldn't we all be buying multi million dollar boats? Professionally 'factory' maintained.

My basic point is that if it were more expensive I would still be at home in Sydney.

Everyone here has the same choice waste money you don't have and stay at home; or be realistic and go cruising for the rest of your life today.

If you are that scared to sail a boat without double thickness stays then the reality of cruising will really freak you out.



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Old 22-08-2009, 20:48   #36
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? Double thickness stays / shrouds? The standing rigging on a boat is designed and matched to the hull and the whole boat is a unit. So what is double thickness? Changing the standing rigging away from the design spec's is not wise as you are now changing the loads and stress on the all the components of the boat.
Almost everything ever built to sail on water has made it across an ocean or two sometime or other. But you need to choose how much speed versus stability you want and then go find the boat.
"Green water" boats are typically thought of a double-enders with full deep V-keels, barn door rudders and heavy displacement with "cutter rigs" being the most preferred. They are slow and very steady well balanced boats. Just don't try to maneuver one backwards. The only like going forward and in a straight line.
"Island and cruising boats" tend toward less keel, 3/4 or less with more beam and flatter undersides. The are faster, somewhat nimble and can be steered in reverse.
"Coastal boats" tend towards fin keels, canoe bottoms, and high aspect ratio rigs. Fast and very nimble and you can turn circles around everybody else forwards or backwards.
So set out some serious realistic plans of where and how you are going to use the boat and then go for the style that you want.
One other serious consideration, don't buy a boat bigger than you can maintain and repair.
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Old 22-08-2009, 22:05   #37
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There's a lot I agree with here but not everything of course ;-)

Rigging size: it is well known that some boats need one size up from original, because their masts go overboard all the time and the ones that install one size up keep the masts aboard. They probably changed that now, but Bavaria was a good example of that. "Double thickness" is just silly, where does that come from??

Also, going one size up doesn't change the load and stress for a mono hull (don't let me start on multi hulls again here! ;-). The force on the capshrouds is equal to the righting moment of the boat, no matter the wire size used.

Money: There comes a time you have to replace the rigging to keep it safe. Ordering one size up if the original rigging is "skinny" doesn't cost much extra. Also, you can't save money by never replacing the rigging. You must maintain the boats primary systems because it's just luck if you get away with lack of maintenance and you'll run out of luck one day. If a piece of paint falls off the hull, it's a decision about spending money or not, but the primary systems are needed to endure and the rigging is one of them.

Osiris:
Quote:
"Coastal boats" tend towards fin keels, canoe bottoms, and high aspect ratio rigs. Fast and very nimble and you can turn circles around everybody else forwards or backwards.
You describe a Sundeer, however, I can assure you we are not a "coastal boat". So your statement is flawed. ;-)

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 23-08-2009, 06:44   #38
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- -Notice the words "tend towards" which means generally but not always. Hunters and Catalinas are the "chevrolets" of coastal sailing boats. They made a million of them and they are relatively cheap and you get good value for your money. Fast and nimble.
- - For 5 to 10 times the money you can get the Sundeer which I would catagorize as the "DeLorean" of sailing boats.
- - >>Rigging size: it is well known that some boats need one size up from original, because their masts go overboard all the time and the ones that install one size up keep the masts aboard.<< Good grief, Charlie Brown . . . What "production sailboat" are those? Seems to me the manufacturer would be quickly put out of business with a flood of liability lawsuits. I assume the "one size up" is about masts and wire size? There are a million things or more that I have not heard of and a production boat that loses its mast and rigging, all the time - is definitely in that category. Please talk some more about that situation, it does sound like rather important information to know about and to avoid those boats. On the used boat market you are really vulnerable to such situations as rarely are you provided with the "whole story" about the used boat. And a used boat sale is normally, "as is, where is" which leaves you with no future recourse should major defects be discovered after the sale.
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Old 23-08-2009, 09:43   #39
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Well, Bavaria did get a lot of press for a series of keel bolt failures, about 2-3 years ago, if I recall correctly. Then again, Warren Luhrs (sp?) boss of Hunter lost his own keel on Thursdays Child some years back for the same reason.

Or as they say, if you don't break anything you're not racing.

The war between designers, accountants, and bosses will never end, but I don't think anyone has earned a reputation for consistant mast/rigging failures in a production boat. I'd expect the standards for rigging-vs-boat-load are pretty well established by now and first ask "Was it Chinese rigging cable?"

Bad cable was a problem even when the Brooklyn Bridge was being strung.

BTW, has anyone in the US had a 36-40 sloop rerigged, professionally, this year? I'm curious as to ballpark prices on that now. Next to sails and engine repairs, I'd expect that's the single biggest item that needs to be done on used boats on the market these days.
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Old 23-08-2009, 10:25   #40
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Speaking of rigging, do the majority of ya'll who purchase used boats not budget for new rigging in the beggining? unless the previous owner was meticulous and could provide proof of previous replacement i think i would rather have the peace of mind and redo it all so that i know what i have. Seems to me the extra for an upfront rerig at the time the boat is purchased would be worth it for not having that nagging in the back of your head always wondering . But i am also VERY big on preventative maintenance and such.
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Old 23-08-2009, 10:58   #41
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xray the chain plates during the survey - $500-$600

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Speaking of rigging, do the majority of ya'll who purchase used boats not budget for new rigging in the beggining? unless the previous owner was meticulous and could provide proof of previous replacement i think i would rather have the peace of mind and redo it all so that i know what i have. Seems to me the extra for an upfront rerig at the time the boat is purchased would be worth it for not having that nagging in the back of your head always wondering . But i am also VERY big on preventative maintenance and such.
Chain plates and their bolts have a fatigue life of so many thousands of stress cycles, then they break without warning. To take the mystery out of when they will break, hire a testing laboratory to xray them. The xray will indicate the state of the microscopic crystalline structure of the metal. Then you will know how much of the life of the chain plate is left.

just info in case you need it.

I'm with you - I'd replace the rigging pretty quickly on an old boat. Lots of books describe how to check their obvious condition - meat hooks, etc. A trip to the top of the mast is required once a year as well as during the survey.

I'd definitely replace all elements of 10 year old rigging, no matter what. Taking a risk of the mast falling without warning is really just not acceptable economics.
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Old 23-08-2009, 14:20   #42
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I love this forum, been gone for just over a year now, out cruising,(Hi All) and when I get back, I find the same people arguing over the same subjects as I did a year ago..
Something I've learned and I'm sure other who have been there will agree..
Pick the boat that fits your needs..
Big, small, fin, or full, sloop or catch, you're always going to love what you have and hate it at the same time, its all part of the cruising lifestyle.
The One thing I will asure you of.. whatever your decision, Keep it simple...
The boat that is.. Find the simplest boat you can find..
Because those of us that have done it, know.. The definition of cruising is
" repairing your boat in exotic ports"
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Old 23-08-2009, 15:20   #43
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Xraying the chain plates is a nice idea, but that would mean removing and rebedding them and sending them out to a lab--a bit intense for a survey and pointless unless you're also xraying the bow and stern fittings, masthead fittings, and more.
"Ka-Ching!"

Even if you find a mobile xray lab to come do it.

More practical, if not as critical, to use a dye kit to check for cracks, and if you're going to pull the other fittings, just pull 'em and replace with new. Even if the old ones are good, if they're 20 years old xraying is a waste of time and money, as opposed to replacing them. They've still AGED. What, if they're good this year, do you xray annually afterwards?
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Old 23-08-2009, 17:37   #44
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I love this forum, been gone for just over a year now, out cruising,(Hi All) and when I get back, I find the same people arguing over the same subjects as I did a year ago..
When you go next time make sure you have internet on the boat. Then you can keep up with us still arguing No need to miss one action packed episode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope you had fun
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Old 23-08-2009, 18:30   #45
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OK, how many here with boats over 10 years old have replaced their rigging just because of the age. This seems crazy and is kind of like the replace engine after "X" hours threads. Why do so many just keep going on with these things? If you are going to keep worrying so much it is time to find a new "sport" or you better win the lottery or something!
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