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osirissail · 30-08-2009, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

I have never really understood why people use a percentage of the purchase price anyway. Say you take the same year boat and model. One costs 200,00 one 150,000. I would think the higher priced one was better taken care of needing less done. but if you use your 50% for instance you would be spending considerably more for a refit for the higher priced one, whereas you would think the cheaper one needed more work therefore the higher refit costs. .

- - Your example has a unusual condition set: "the same year and model" with a $50K difference (25-33% variation) in price on same boat. That kind of variation on the same year and model is highly unusual to see. One may be "low balled" due to damage or some major negative factor in which case you may need more than 50% to re-fit it.
- - The other higher priced boat may have just finished a refit and is ready to go which means the additional you need to spend will be less than 50% by a wide margin. But the determinant will be how far away from the BUC price for the boat are the two seller's prices.
- - Remember our % to refit is used for the actual buying price of the boat and not the seller's asking price. There is normally an average 33% difference between asking and finally buying price. So the 50% for refit would be on the buying price and for boats more than 10 years old. That is a big factor. Boats under 10 years old still have a some "life" left in their various systems before needing major overhaul or replacement (e.g. the standing rigging - a big $$ item).
- - As was also explained there is a huge variation in what one sailor considered necessary before sailing away and what another sailor thinks. That can vary from "it's not leaking that fast, let's go" to "I just need to finish this AIS integration to the flamilfizzzle computer whammy-watsis and then we can go". Average out all the cases over years of time and you get the "rule of thumb" of 50% of actual buying price.

aspiringsailor · 30-08-2009, 18:40

When i think refit, i think hull structure, rigging, and so forth. The things that are neccesary. I dont think of the latest chart plotters and electronics as part of a refit i consider those upgrades and non essential. It seems that yall are throwing upgrades into the overall concept of what i perceive a refit. In that case your refit costs could be outrageous.

aspiringsailor · 30-08-2009, 18:42

the more i think about it the more absurd it becomes to even try to come up with a percentage to have as a "rule of thumb"

osirissail · 30-08-2009, 19:48

- -The rule of thumb is only put forth to help the prospective boat purchaser be aware that they maybe some serious or maybe minor problems with a very old boat (over 10 years) and help prevent the purchaser from spending all his money on the purchase and then end up crying while sitting with his thumb up his ....... and worrying about where to get the additional money to get the boat ready to go.
- - If the purchase is for a coastal, lake or local waters only boat then the navigational and other "upgrades" are not necessary. If the purchase is for a voyaging boat bound for the Islands or open ocean then navigation, life rafts, EPIRBS, etc. are all necessary expenses to keep you alive. It is extremely rare that an old boat will have functioning good electronics, and other necessary for living items inside the boat. Before you leave USA waters it is wise to have every system fully functional and reliable. Replacing or repairing "down island" is downright expensive and shipping in parts from the USA doubly expensive. It is cheaper to buy spares while still in the USA, then vacuum pack them and never use them rather than pay retail (plus) and freight and customs duties down island. And best of all about having "spares" onboard is the "perversity of the universe" rule that states that if you spent all that money and have it, you will never need it.

barnakiel · 31-08-2009, 08:01

From my perspective after a very intensive 6 years of sailing (my boat was 20 and very well back then) the refit would be outrageously expensive - rigging, structure, engine, sails. Probably better to sell of and go for a less used sample.

But I can see it is a good option for a relatively young boat where her bad appearance is basically cosmetic (like faded gelco, etc.).

Anyway I know two things so far:

1) buy the better boat, spend less on refit, or
2) buy the cheaper boat and it WILL become the more expensive one (in the process of refit).

But is is all different for people with money and for those with lot of skill and plenty of time.

b.

Fishman_Tx · 31-08-2009, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

When i think refit, i think hull structure, rigging, and so forth. The things that are neccesary. I dont think of the latest chart plotters and electronics as part of a refit i consider those upgrades and non essential. It seems that yall are throwing upgrades into the overall concept of what i perceive a refit. In that case your refit costs could be outrageous.

Quote:

estarzinger: They are real numbers spent (total costs) in real refits for people that actually untied the dock lines and went cruising.

aspiringsailor: my thoughts also.

I would not spend 150k on a boat requiring that much of a refit...period. I would either lower the size requirement or find something else. 150K for a 40ish footer is a bit high for a boat requiring a rigging refit and new sails, don't you think? And I don't care what brand it is, I'm buying for function, not for name. So, in essence, I would buy a fully tricked, freshly reworked Bristol, Morgan, or Irwin, etc. for 150k vs. a Beneteau requiring a major overhaul.

We paid 5700 for a Bristol 34 which will cost us about 7k to rework, ALL sweat equity, and in the end will render a boat with a significantly greater resale value. Are you all talking having a yard do the ($50K) refit? Do it yourself. You should learn this stuff anyway. Get the rigging done by an industrial rigger, it'll be half the cost! Just hand him a shroud or stay and say "Make me one of these in 316 stainless" (or whatever # you prefer for your rigging).

Just MHO...

**sneuman** · 31-08-2009, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

From my perspective after a very intensive 6 years of sailing (my boat was 20 and very well back then) the refit would be outrageously expensive - rigging, structure, engine, sails. Probably better to sell of and go for a less used sample.

But I can see it is a good option for a relatively young boat where her bad appearance is basically cosmetic (like faded gelco, etc.).

Anyway I know two things so far:

1) buy the better boat, spend less on refit, or
2) buy the cheaper boat and it WILL become the more expensive one (in the process of refit).

But is is all different for people with money and for those with lot of skill and plenty of time.

b.

I agree. I think the best approach for the budget-conscious sailor is to get a "pretty good" example of a sound boat -- preferably something where the basic refit is going to fall mostly on the cosmetic side ... Something that can be sailed on nights and weekends with little or no immediate sweat equity or added expense. Although my "to do" list is fairly lengthy and includes some fairly involved projects, there's nothing on it right now that keeps me from leaving the dock.

Fishman_Tx · 31-08-2009, 10:04

BTW, estarzinger, I love that companionway SS dutch door! Who'd have thunk it? That gives me serious "cost increasing" ideas! Love what you've done with Hawk.

S&S · 31-08-2009, 12:08

Well, to that point, I've bought our boat twice. Even so, it's still 20% of the cost of building her new, so I'm ahead ( insert delusional smiley here)

osirissail · 31-08-2009, 21:36

- - Nobody argues with the intent to find the "gem" out there that is "ready to go" or even reasonable "ready to go" shape. They do exist and I have friends who have found such boats. Other threads have discussed how and where to find this hidden boats. But for the vast "unwashed" rest of us we find the boat we like, end up "loving" it, and then lavishing on it all our money to try to turn her from a dowager into a princess.
- - When it is all done we sit back and shake our heads when realizing that we just "bought the boat again" or even worse. There is a reason boats are referred to as "she" or "her" because we mere men keep throwing money at "her" until we think she is pleasing to us.

Curmudgeon · 01-09-2009, 05:28

I'd be curious to know how many of these "gems" find their way to yachtworld, and how many are advertised privately by word of mouth and sold without a broker.

osirissail · 01-09-2009, 05:48

In my personal experience they never make it to any commercial advertising media by definition of being a "gem" - extra low price for extra high value. If such a boat does make it there it is re-priced way out of range. Usually they are found by chance by individuals who have been doing their homework and scouring all the marinas and looking around for "estate sales;" "owner just died;" or government drug confiscation sales. Depending upon the sales price you may do-it-yourself (if you have done adequate research on how to do it) or engage your own broker (buyer's broker) to take care of the details - of course the actual purchase price will be inflated by the buyer's broker fee for his services. As with other "brokered" sales sometimes a broker will hear of such a "gem" and put out the word to his "preferred" customers before he opens it up generally. That what happened to me. Finding a "good" broker is a trick anyway, finding one with whom you have good rapport and can be friends with is a trick and a half.