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Old 29-12-2010, 22:08   #181
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Ok, in the price range of 37 - 50k one has got plenty of choices in that size range as long as you steer clear of cult boats. I sat in on a seminar given by John Kretchmeyer at the Chicago strictly sail show last year where he discussed a whole bunch of boats suitable for offshore cruising,these were all boats which he had actual experience of over 1000 miles, either cruising or deliveries, they ran the gamut of all the usual suspects but one which he was particually enamoured with was his old Contessa 32, Gigi which he sailed from NY to San Francisco by way of Cape Horn, now this is not a heavy displacement full keel boat but what impressed him was the hull shape and how much at one with the sea it was, it was low freeboard,was wet and flexed a lot but it was a particularly seaworthy boat. After i returned home from the show i did a bit of a search and came to realize that there are many cruiser racer types that were built in that era with the similar hull shapes and specs,any of them would make good Bluewater boats for reasonable money,no you are not going to buy one ready to go but you can surely buy and outfit within the OPs budget. Examples would be boats such as the Ericson 32 and 35, Islanders 36 and 37,Pearson 33,and many others in the US.The Cavalier 32, Brolga 33, S&S 34,Hartley RORC 32 and others down under and of course the Contessa.
None of these would be considered lightweight by todays standards but they are not heavyweights either. Many of these of course have already done quite spectacular voyages including non stop circumnavigations in the southern ocean ( S&S 34 and RORC 32) southern ocean circumnavigation and northwest passage(Brolga) To suggest they are less capable is absurd.
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Old 30-12-2010, 00:48   #182
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my 20 cents. i am from germany and have some contacts with Bav, hanse etc and what i clearly learnt is that there is NO market for offshore boats anymore. mosts sailors i know never went out over night, sailing in force 5-6 already sounds crazy to them.... 90 % of boats are going to charter companies in the Med, carib etc. all makers told me they could built better boats but at a higher price which nobody wants to pay. I really think this was different 20-40 years ago, boats where allways luxury toys and really expensive, minimum like a stand alone villa. Now you can get a 44 feet Varianta in germany for 100 k euro which is maybe the third of a small house....... questions ?

i just recvd a offer for a 44 feet aluminium bluewater boat from the netherland and they quoting 795.000 eur which is arround 1 mio usd. so we should not compare apples and peas etc.

i bought a boat built in 1980 and i am happy , really decent stuff, massive wood inside, most parts can be accessed and repaired, full skeg rudder etc etc
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Old 30-12-2010, 02:42   #183
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my 20 cents. i am from germany and have some contacts with Bav, hanse etc and what i clearly learnt is that there is NO market for offshore boats anymore. mosts sailors i know never went out over night, sailing in force 5-6 already sounds crazy to them.... 90 % of boats are going to charter companies in the Med, carib etc. all makers told me they could built better boats but at a higher price which nobody wants to pay. I really think this was different 20-40 years ago, boats where allways luxury toys and really expensive, minimum like a stand alone villa. Now you can get a 44 feet Varianta in germany for 100 k euro which is maybe the third of a small house....... questions ?

i just recvd a offer for a 44 feet aluminium bluewater boat from the netherland and they quoting 795.000 eur which is arround 1 mio usd. so we should not compare apples and peas etc.

i bought a boat built in 1980 and i am happy , really decent stuff, massive wood inside, most parts can be accessed and repaired, full skeg rudder etc etc
That's very interesting, and of course makes sense when you think about it.
What kind of boat did you buy?
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Old 30-12-2010, 05:30   #184
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a MARIMBA 44 feet aluminium center cockpit boat designed in NZ and built in Germany, a littel bit like a amel maramu. of course i have to change the head, hoses, batteries etc but the hardware is really nice an solid and often it made sense to repair things instead buying new ones like my lewmar 52 winches which is juts get new chromed etc.
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Old 30-12-2010, 05:44   #185
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Brent this is just an unsubstantiated generic comment,no proof. no evidence, you might as well state the earth is flat.

Again the undeniable thruth is that 100's of modern production boats are circumnavigating, once it was a unique activity undertaken by a very select few, now many do, part of that reason ( amongst better nav and weather info) is that modern production boats are just better, better built , fail less and get there.

Look at the ARC these boats are outside any reliable weather forecasting, and they regulary meet 50+ knots squalls, its full of essentially standard production boats ( Beneteau being the biggest group in the 2010 ARC). Evidence Brent evidence.

Dave
From what I've seen some modern boats are better built, while others are just adequate.

If you look at the construction on a 2010 Valiant 42, for example, I doubt you'd walk away saying it wasn't anything but top-notch. With a $500K price tag, it ought to be.

I won't mention other manufacturers for the other side of my argument so as not to offend anyone - but the "adequate" boats are just that. Will these boats safely cross oceans? Absolutely.

Due to their low price point and availability, more of them probably do cross oceans that the really well-built ones. Does that make them "blue water"? I suppose that depends on your definition.
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Old 30-12-2010, 12:54   #186
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Like most things the arguments at the extreme ends of the spectrum are overstatements, i.e., coastal cruisers can go anywhere, or try to cross an ocean in one and you'll surely die. The truth, as most have said in one way or another, lies in the middle. However, I firmly believe that you get what you pay for. You pay more for a boat built to higher specs, with ocean-going features, but the investment was worth it to me. Here's my personal experience...

I've done seven bluewater passages, one in a friends boat and six in my own. My friend's boat was a 36' sloop, a coastal cruiser/racer with fin keel and spade rudder. It was an Italian boat called a Comet. It kind of had the look of a Sabre or maybe a Tartan, but not quite as well-built. My boat was a 38' Island Packet, full keel and cutter rigged.

Bottom line, we made it to our destination each time, having experienced Gale and Strong Gale force storms without dying. But the comfort factor and confidence in the boat's safety was telling.

In heavy weather in the Comet, we had to actively hand steer with constant attention, actively steering up and over the waves in an "S" pattern to keep the boat from pounding as it came off the wave. The skipper was worried about damaging the rig and shaking things loose down below. Green water frequently ran the length of the deck and cabin roof, cascading into the cockpit, soaking the crew with cold water, and running under the companionway hatch cover into the cabin below. Waves would occasionally jump into the cockpit from the side. The deck-to-hull joint leaked profusely--we each had to give the pump 80 strokes or so after coming off watch. The water tank was only 35 gallons, so we had plastic jugs on the cabin sole (not enough room in the lazarettes). Water was strictly rationed to about 3 quarts per person per day for everything. I don't recall the fuel capacity, but we had six jerry jugs lashed to stanchions. Cooking meals or even getting in and out of your foulies was a major exercise due to the violent motion below. The air below was claustrophobic. Sleep was hard to come by. We became exhausted automatons. The wheelpilot failed during the Gulf Stream crossing. The steering failed at the beginning of the Gale. Steering with a two foot long steel pipe was no picnic in a Gale. The Volvo Penta wouldn't start in the calm after the Gale, so we drifted for 24 hours. The wind came back, so we made it to Virgin Gorda, but our batteries were dead and we had to be towed into the marina. On the plus side, the boat pointed well and sailed well in light to moderate winds.

We had worse weather on several of the passages in the Island Packet, Force 9 on one and continual 50 knot squalls on another two. The autopilot could handle most conditions we experienced, but I'm one of those nutters who likes to sail the boat by hand. With balanced sails we kept the heel to 15% max, no fussy steering issues. We were dry and comfortable with the high freeboard and cockpit canvas. The boat's motion was very manageable. We could actually get some sleep off-watch, and cooked great hot meals for dinner. We took hot showers every fourth day. Nothing broke. And surprisingly, our average SOG for these passages was almost 20% higher than the cruiser/racer.

The Comet was a great boat for it's intended purpose (coastal cruising and club racing). It's owner did a number of offshore trips from Hampton Roads to Bermuda and to New England, so it was clearly capable of offshore work. But the difference in comfort, the ability to get rested and eat proper meals and not having to worry about stuff breaking is why I bought the IP.
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Old 30-12-2010, 13:34   #187
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Quote:
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The Comet was a great boat for it's intended purpose (coastal cruising and club racing). It's owner did a number of offshore trips from Hampton Roads to Bermuda and to New England, so it was clearly capable of offshore work. But the difference in comfort, the ability to get rested and eat proper meals and not having to worry about stuff breaking is why I bought the IP.
Quite aptly put, I must say. However, there is a strange compromise to be made.


Ok lets put it this way, today's boats are more towards speed than easy sea riding capability because it costs less, and as someone pointed out earlier that if they started making true bluewater boats, there will not be many takers as these boats will be very expensive. So they make faster production boats for less costs which can cross oceans too.

On the other hand whatever true bluewater boats (full keel, heavy displacement, etc) which are available in the market are easily 20 years old or more. these 20-30 year old boats will start to fall apart now. there will be so many issues, like rudder, propeller shafts, etc. water ingress can happen anywhere. So if you bring these boats upto something "new" you'd have ended up spending a lot of money which could have easily gotten you a Malo or a Najad.

So equation is

for same amount of money

fast modern production boats OR older true bluewater boats

what is right?
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Old 30-12-2010, 13:35   #188
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"My mind wanders"
No country for Old Men :-)
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Old 30-12-2010, 13:49   #189
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Quite aptly put, I must say. However, there is a strange compromise to be made.


Ok lets put it this way, today's boats are more towards speed than easy sea riding capability because it costs less, and as someone pointed out earlier that if they started making true bluewater boats, there will not be many takers as these boats will be very expensive. So they make faster production boats for less costs which can cross oceans too.

On the other hand whatever true bluewater boats (full keel, heavy displacement, etc) which are available in the market are easily 20 years old or more. these 20-30 year old boats will start to fall apart now. there will be so many issues, like rudder, propeller shafts, etc. water ingress can happen anywhere. So if you bring these boats upto something "new" you'd have ended up spending a lot of money which could have easily gotten you a Malo or a Najad.

So equation is

for same amount of money

fast modern production boats OR older true bluewater boats

what is right?
Dunno, our boat is almost 50 and is no where near falling apart.
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Old 30-12-2010, 13:59   #190
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Dunno, our boat is almost 50 and is no where near falling apart.

Hmm! (my mind still wanders)
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Old 30-12-2010, 19:16   #191
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If a boat is falling apart after 20 years, that sort of proves my point about the cheaper production boats. The marketing industry in this country would like people to believe they have to buy brand new stuff. My boat is 40 years old, the rigging and chain plates were replaced when the rig was changed, the engine only has 1500 hours on it and runs like it is brand new (it is 20 years old) according to the sail maker my mainsail has 1 more year of blue water sailing left in it (alot more weekend sailing)....can't think of anything else on the boat that might be "worn out" only major work I am doing is customizing the interior (something that would have to be done to a brand new production boat for extended cruising anyway)
I am on a limited budget, the boat is a classic wooden ocean cruiser and there are no compromises (my final cost after refit is under $25,000)....there is a wooden schooner 49' LOD for sale for $150,000 and a steel schooner a bit bigger for not much more here where I live, both fully fitted out with alot of water under their belts....compared to a new plastic boat they are a steal.
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Old 31-12-2010, 05:35   #192
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......compared to a new plastic boat they are a steal.
Yes theres generally a very good reason why old wooden and steel boats are a " steal"

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Old 31-12-2010, 11:43   #193
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Yes theres generally a very good reason why old wooden and steel boats are a " steal"

Dave
the low prices of these boats are due to the economy, I know both the boats (both are immaculate).

I did not include boats which were really low price on the surface, but needed more work than they were worth.
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Old 31-12-2010, 12:04   #194
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"the low prices of these boats are due to the economy,"
But wood and steel yachts typically are always 'cheap' no matter what the economy is. Wood, because most of us don't want to even think of the possible maintenance nightmares. And since most of the US has warmer waters than WA, wood boats are more likely to have those problems for most of us.
I feel in love with a classic Loki one summer, but ignoring the maintenance issues, old wooden yachts tend to have cramped spaces below. It was a fast decision to love her from a distance and not take her home.<G>
Steel boats present a whole other set of problems in the US, most of them are one-off or custom or home-built, and there's no great resale market for them, so their prices also tend to be depressed all the time. Unless you're in that higher-end market...folks don't like to scrape rust, or question the merits of home welding jobs.

that's not to say either can't be a bargain--just that most of the time, for most of the market and most of the boats, there's a reason they are cheap.
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Old 31-12-2010, 12:44   #195
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Wolf:
That's a sweet looking design and a great looking dog.
I always love those old Atkin designs.
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