Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-12-2010, 07:43   #166
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

They didn't build the same thickness 30 years ago, they built them much thicker. Keels didn't fall of so often back then, and they didn't capsize and stay capsized back then. Osmossis was almost unheard of before 1980.

Keels falling off are a very, very rare occurance. And the fin keels 30 tears ago had much longer root chord lengths than the high performance keels today. The longer lengths spread the loads over a larger area of the hull.

Osmosis - significant blistering - started showing up around 1973.

While the hulls are not as thick today (ignoring cored hulls), better resins, better building techniques, and better framing can give you a stronger hull with a thinner hull thickness.
__________________

__________________
slap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 08:03   #167
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
I'm not a materials expert either, but there is - IMHO - something to be said for fiberglass thickness in older boats.

Thinner may be just as strong today in some respects, but in the end, if there's 3/4" of glass between you and a piling, it's still 1/2" more than you'll find in many of today's boats. Better layup schedules are one thing, but fiberglass resin - and for the most part the cloth too - are essentially the same today as 30 years ago - the formulations have not changed drastically.
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 08:10   #168
Registered User
 
pressuredrop's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: West Palm Beach
Boat: Allied Seawind 30
Posts: 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
Osmosis - significant blistering - started showing up around 1973.
which is (coincidentally) when (petroleum based) resins were reformulated as a result of the oil embargo...
__________________
pressuredrop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 08:18   #169
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,221
Images: 2
pirate

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
And in reality he is not an ideal example of a modern man. He was very flawed. Equally the boat was very very rough by modern standards.
ROFLMBO....... So was my hero in 'CigarGate....'... "No baby... it aint a cuban..."
Show me a man who is'nt...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 08:59   #170
S&S
Registered User
 
S&S's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Boat: 48' 1963 S&S yawl
Posts: 851
Images: 6
FWIW, a circumnavigation along the "coconut run" is not the same as high latitude cruising. Horses for courses. If you're staying between 30N and 30S and have access to good weather forecasting, a beamy production boat with roller this and in-mast that should work fine. As it usually does. A number of people have gone RTW on Hunters, Beneteaus etc. The further North (or South) you go the more you see "purpose built" boats, mostly in steel or aluminum and for good reason.
__________________
S&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 13:14   #171
Registered User
 
storyinframes's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Mumbai
Boat: Westsail32
Posts: 256
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to storyinframes
Probably not

I decided to be positive with my boat choice and will be sailing in conditions like this

@hoppy: yeah I like this idea of sailing crew in Bikinis. And then go hunting for a storm so that you are locked inside with all the pretty bunnys. Eh! wishful thinking. let me get a goddamn boat first.
__________________
storyinframes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 13:44   #172
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
I do not think this is quite correct. I am not a materials engineer, but my understanding is that as they have learned how to reduce the amount of resin in fiberglass, it has gotten much stronger inch-for-inch and pound-for-pound.

A hull build using a process such as SCRIMP (just to name one example) is much stronger than a hull of the same thickness build 30 years ago.
Just because a materiel is stronger inch for inch pound for pound.....doesn't mean it is a stronger or even equally strong boat. The newer technology/manufacturing processes do allow boats to be made thinner, though manufacturers do not stop when at the strength of the older boats....they make them even thinner and lighter....great for racing and to save money on production.
There is alot more to a blue water boat than hull strength. Standing rigging, running rigging, sails, fittings, ports,....all should be stronger. The boat boat should have increased fuel, water and propane tankage, increased storage for more food, clothes etc.....this all adds significant weight that effects a light weight boat much more dramatically than a heavy displacement boat. A heavier boat rides more comfortably in heavy seas reducing fatigue on the crew (fatigue is alot more dangerous than most people think).
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 15:16   #173
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,167
Most of the scantlings for modern production boats are designed for the empty displacement of the boat, which is far below the fully loaded cruising weight .
__________________
Brent Swain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 15:34   #174
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Most of the scantlings for modern production boats are designed for the empty displacement of the boat, which is far below the fully loaded cruising weight .

Brent this is just an unsubstantiated generic comment,no proof. no evidence, you might as well state the earth is flat.

Again the undeniable thruth is that 100's of modern production boats are circumnavigating, once it was a unique activity undertaken by a very select few, now many do, part of that reason ( amongst better nav and weather info) is that modern production boats are just better, better built , fail less and get there.

Look at the ARC these boats are outside any reliable weather forecasting, and they regulary meet 50+ knots squalls, its full of essentially standard production boats ( Beneteau being the biggest group in the 2010 ARC). Evidence Brent evidence.

Dave
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 15:54   #175
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Modern construction METHODS and MATERIALS are far superior to the old hand laid polyester and glass methods. They do make for a lighter boat and if used properly make for a lighter stronger boat. Areas of concern for me in modern production boats are fewer keel bolts in a smaller area, and spade rudders. Manufacturers have not addressed the problems of metal fatigue in spade rudders. Actually, they refuse to acknowledge the problem so how can they address it.

Actually many boats still use a hand layup and except for a few outer layers to address the blistering problem, they are still made with polyester resin. Then they cut down the thickness of the hull and this leads to a lesser quality boat IMHO.

In the above statement I am referring to methods such as vacuum infusion and materials such as vinylester and epoxy resins.
__________________
DeepFrz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 16:30   #176
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,320
All this has been interesting. But in the end it's all just talk compared to the FACT that there are "production" boats all around the world doing it.

Now I'm out the door to get into my 1965 Buick for a trip down to the store (I like that it a nice solid heavy peice of equipment that will crush those tiny death traps made now days).

And I am of course joking, other than the FACT part.
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 19:44   #177
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Duluth,Minnesota
Boat: Lindenberg 26 & Aloha 8.2
Posts: 984
This whole argument that that everything needs to be heavier built on a bluewater cruiser is hogwash just the same as you need heavy displacement to carry a cruising payload. If i saw a boat advertised with my personal favorite "oversized rigging" i would give it a pass. Ive nothing against heavy displacement boats, in fact i like em for their motion,however often times they are so ridiculously overbuilt that they in fact dont have great payload capacity if you want to float anywhere near the DWL(which,if it doesnt ,it renders all those numbers which people these days are so fond of meaningless) If a classic "Bluewater boat" such as the Westsail 32 as an example were to be engineered today with a robust foam cored structure and an eye to weight saving throughout,you could probably add a couple of thousand pounds payload and float on its lines and be a much better boat for it. As Don said there are boats of all stripes out there doing it that many would not consider bluewater boats,such as forum member Mark J and his mighty Beneteau who just completed a realativly trouble free circumnavigation(well,except for a broken forestay) There are probably people who would not consider Guzzwells "Trekka" a bluewater boat but after 2 workmanlike circumnavigations it would be hard to make that argument without looking like a chump.
Steve.
__________________
clockwork orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 20:17   #178
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
the question really isn't "is it possible to use any type of boat for blue water cruising?" but rather can I use a light wieght boat designed and fitted for weekend coastal cruising in place of an ocean cruiser designed and equipped specifically for the purpose from the ground up, the answer is yes...but not as effectively"

right tool for the right job

Also considerin the original post asks ".. which ocean going monohull boats can be obtained in a moderate budget of 37k-50k USD. length 31-36ft. looks are not an issue.." that sort of leaves the better built production boats like Beanatue out of the picture
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 20:29   #179
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
the question really isn't "is it possible to use any type of boat for blue water cruising?" but rather can I use a light wieght boat designed and fitted for weekend coastal cruising in place of an ocean cruiser designed and equipped specifically for the purpose from the ground up, the answer is yes...but not as effectively"

right tool for the right job
Yes but your question starts with asumptions, ie a light weight boat fitted out for coastal cruising asumption that somehow that boat is less capable. Why would a coastal boat simply by definition be less capable. It has to sail in often worse weather, near dangerous coasts and arguably requires more seamanship skills then crossing an ocean. ( I know I ve done it twice). You may argue re tankage or battery capacity, yet teh ARC shows that realatively unmodified cruisers do it fine.

And the "tools for the job" is itself in dispute, many would say that fast sailing in a modern, realatively lightweight fin and spade is a better "tool for the job", ask any modern french sailor for example.

its not that modern production yachts are compromised, many would say they are better then their predecessors.

None is taking about setting out accross an ocean unprepared, but modern production boats are as capable of "bluewater" as anything out there.

Dave
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2010, 22:01   #180
Registered User
 
bewitched's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 885
Images: 3
My bluewater boat doesn't exist. I haven't designed it yet.

Even if I did design it, I doubt I'd ever be able to afford it.

So I go in what I can afford.

It's a compromise - it always will be
__________________

__________________
bewitched is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do I Really Need a Bluewater Boat ? scm007 Monohull Sailboats 108 15-09-2010 06:58
Bluewater Boat for Under $40k camcam Monohull Sailboats 56 14-08-2010 12:27
I Don't Want a Bluewater Boat unbusted67 Monohull Sailboats 63 19-09-2009 19:02
Preference for Bluewater Boat? 3333feet General Sailing Forum 6 10-06-2009 13:58
How much of a bluewater/open ocean boat do I actually need? Crossett Monohull Sailboats 36 21-05-2007 10:24



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.