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Old 16-11-2012, 16:17   #31
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Maybe there are two types of people: call them warriors or worryiers. The warrior will try to save the boat no matter what (and if under-budgeted, will go to sea without the button) while the worryier will just hit the button (they will never go to sea without one in the first place).

In each case the matter at hand gets addressed, which is actually all that matters.

b.
Actually, no, the matter doesn't get addressed. Hitting the button 1200 miles off shore probably won't help. And if the warrior is clueless, he's isn't going to get anything accomplished. He's going to sink.
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Old 16-11-2012, 16:21   #32
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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The point is that some folks have outboards without alternators. So if you have say a 200 watt solar panel, try and keep a battery or 2 totally charged in case of an emergency on a rainy night ,in the dark, or at any other time....
200W solar will deliver like say 10 A over 5 hours. Best matched with say 100-150 Ah battery. This battery will deliver 60 A before the pumps lose half of their rated thruput. Two hours of pumping.

Unless the leak is minor this boat will sink before one can find and plug the hole. Remember, once the hole is some inches below water level, it becomes very difficult where the water is coming from.

b.
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Old 16-11-2012, 16:24   #33
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Smile Re: Blue Water Survival

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200W solar will deliver like say 10 A over 5 hours. Best matched with say 100-150 Ah battery. This battery will deliver 60 A before the pumps lose half of their rated thruput. Two hours of pumping.

Unless the leak is minor this boat will sink before one can find and plug the hole. Remember, once the hole is some inches below water level, it becomes very difficult where the water is coming from.

b.
Okay, two hours is something to work with though. You can then become the warrior (as you say) and attack the problem if you have a little knowledge before hand as to where all your thru hulls are and where the hoses go that are attached to them.

And how about we take a break in the action and watch an old boat video (-:

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Old 16-11-2012, 16:27   #34
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Actually, no, the matter doesn't get addressed. Hitting the button 1200 miles off shore probably won't help. And if the warrior is clueless, he's isn't going to get anything accomplished. He's going to sink.
Oh yes it will. That's what EPIRB has been invented for.

Now to that old, long keel ship without screws you have just added cold water, no dinghy and plenty of sharks - this is not fair!

;-)

Not sure why you assume the warrior will be clueless. Is there any fixed relationship between being a go-for-it personality and being clueless?

b.
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Old 16-11-2012, 16:31   #35
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Okay, two hours is something to work with though. You can then become the warrior (as you say) and attack the problem if you have a little knowledge before hand as to where all your thru hulls are and where the hoses go that are attached to them.

And how about we take a break in the action and watch an old boat video:

+1!

Guys&girls: I apologize for being such a moron. I do enjoy this thread a lot so not I will just sit, watch the video and read others' posts.

Love,
b.
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Old 16-11-2012, 17:15   #36
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Yachting Monthly have made a series of very informative videos on this subject. Been posted before but worth watching.

Back on point.
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Old 16-11-2012, 19:32   #37
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Re: Blue Water Survival

Baby steps. I can't imagine someone buying a boat, then, with little or no experience plan on crossing oceans, though I'm sure it's been done.

We've had boats for the last 35 years, and sailboats for the last 6 or 7 of those years. We sail on an inland lake (fingerlakes of NY) most of the time. We also take the boat up to Lake Champlain, which is bigger water than we're used to. It has taught us a lot and made better sailers out of us. We lost our mast on Lake Champlain one year when our forestay broke. We managed to get the mast secured on the boat, collect all the sails and rigging and motor back to the town where we launched the boat. We felt pretty self sufficient, and I learned something about inspecting rigging as well. On an inland lake, so long as no one was hurt, not a big deal. Out in an ocean, probably a deal breaker.

We'll eventually take the boat up to the great lakes as well...more lessons to learn there as well. The last time I was on Lake Ontario, was in a 20' power boat with 8-10' following seas (short, steep waves) as we tried to get off the lake as the weather got worse up by Cape Vincent. I learned I didn't want to do that again.

Some day I see a Bahamas trip in our future. But way more to learn concerning tides and currents (something I don't deal with) and way more to brush up on concerning navigation.

We started with a small boat (hunter 23.5). Easy to learn to sail something this size. Recently moved up a little and bought a Seaward 25.

So like I said...baby steps. My hat's off to anyone who can just buy a boat and go, but I know just enough to know I don't really know much at all. I'm not real conservative and have no problems taking risks, but the ocean would be a real lonely and unforgiving place for someone who wasn't prepared
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Old 16-11-2012, 20:00   #38
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Re: Blue Water Survival

[QUOTE=thomm225;1085646] I noticed while replacing a couple old diesel engines on this boat QUOTE]
On a 27 footer, that's impressive redundancy!
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:01   #39
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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There is NO direct replacement for experience. That's why most prudent folks take baby steps before running, learn to drive F3 before F1, learn to fly in a trainer before an F22. Get my point? Start slow and go gradual so you can get the feel for things before heading off around Cape Horn...

After that it's a simple matter of stuffing your "black box" with knowledge that can be used to come up with creative fixes... It ain't rocket science, but if you've never searched for a leak in your hull in the middle of the night as the water rises above the cabin sole, it helps to know certain things work and others don't as you search to come up with a way to stem the flow...

you wrote: but for the new guy that comes online and plans to sail around the world after a few months learning to sail, dock, and anchor plus buying the boat he may not have planned for certain calamities.

I'd call that person very foolish and lucky if he doesn't get into trouble.

Absolutely +1





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BUT, we see it all the time. It seems like every other day someone posts something about what is the best blue water boat etc. Then adds, I'm about to sell everything and begin the cruising life. (and) I'm about to finish sailing school too and on top of all that, I've sailed with a friend a few times and trimmed the jib!

So I was thinking a few tips wouldn't hurt. Plus a few ideas on what could go wrong on a beautiful non-stormy day.


The few tips to give are "Whoa boy, what's your rush - if you really want to enjoy cruising the world's oceans you need to be safe, knowledgeable and have quite a bit of experience OR crew with someone who has. I admire your spirit but take some time to get it right and then you'll be better equipped to handle what King Neptune might throw at you or cope with gear failure, etc."


To answer your first post about how does someone inexperienced guard against faulty, potentially life threatening defects/maintenance issues when buying a boat? That's easy - hire a competent, well regarded marine surveyor, marine diesel mechanic & rigger. It amazes me that people fork out 10's or 100's of thousands to buy a yacht intending to sail into the blue yonder where you can die if things go pear shaped, but won't spend a few thousand on doing their due diligence. Now that is the definition of 'false economy'!


If you strap some downhill skis on a novice and take him to the top of a double black diamond run and say off you go mate, the outcome will be broken bones or worse. If you strap someone into a hang gliding harness who isn't a trained & competent pilot and launch them off a hill, they will definitely die!
Why then do people think they don't need experience to safely & competently navigate a 10 tonne, 40' foot sailing vessel across an ocean?

Hey, I'm an adventurous guy and I love the spirit, get up & go and desire BUT do it right and do it as safe as you can. If you bursting and can't wait - that's also easy. Crew on someone else's boat, that way you get the adventure & experience without the big risk. Plenty of skippers looking for crew......
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Old 17-11-2012, 05:07   #40
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Re: Blue Water Survival

[QUOTE=Auzzee;1086495]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
I noticed while replacing a couple old diesel engines on this boat QUOTE]
On a 27 footer, that's impressive redundancy!
I should have said, removed a couple. My $2,000.00 boat was bought to train me and to be used as a sailboat. The first thing I did after I bought it was to get the engine running (the boat had been on the hard for 5 years. The owner had passed away), repaint the bottom, and after replacing some running rigging, I splashed it. Soon after the transmission locked up, I replaced it without pulling the engine (big mistake but I did it), then the engine blew the head gasket. It used about 1 quart of oil and hour (and it leaked).

So I removed the 350lb engine at the dock (during high tide) with ropes and the boom. I put the second engine in the same way. I didn't like the second one due to multipule leaks and the smell (my previous boats, catamarans, didn't have engines) so when I had the boat pulled for the winter, I had the marina guy lower his crane line and we removed that engine in about 45 seconds.

The next spring, I mounted a 2012 5 hp Mercury 60 lb 4 stroke outboard w/extra long shaft onto a Panther Bracket with 14" of movement and sailed the thing south 75 miles down here to Virginia Beach. (it's was almost 3 miles motoring just to get out the creek) All summer I have sailed it back and forth across the lower Chesapeake Bay sometimes by going over the first tunnel and going by the ocean route and the boat has done fine except for the roller furler getting jammed a few times.

This boat has been an excellent teacher and when I have gotten seasick on the heavier air days in these choppy bay mixed with ocean waves the boat under tiller autopilot has brought me home (with only small corrections from me when it tried to head backup to windward) I sometimes had too much sail up crossing before a NE wind.

(And) In doing all this, I realized what a total beginner may go through attempting to buy, repair, and then sail his first boat.

My biggest problem now is that there is a Niagara 35 for sail nearby that looks like a pretty nice boat, but it won't go for no $2,000.00
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Old 17-11-2012, 05:44   #41
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Absolutely +1









The few tips to give are "Whoa boy, what's your rush - if you really want to enjoy cruising the world's oceans you need to be safe, knowledgeable and have quite a bit of experience OR crew with someone who has. I admire your spirit but take some time to get it right and then you'll be better equipped to handle what King Neptune might throw at you or cope with gear failure, etc."


To answer your first post about how does someone inexperienced guard against faulty, potentially life threatening defects/maintenance issues when buying a boat? That's easy - hire a competent, well regarded marine surveyor, marine diesel mechanic & rigger. It amazes me that people fork out 10's or 100's of thousands to buy a yacht intending to sail into the blue yonder where you can die if things go pear shaped, but won't spend a few thousand on doing their due diligence. Now that is the definition of 'false economy'!


If you strap some downhill skis on a novice and take him to the top of a double black diamond run and say off you go mate, the outcome will be broken bones or worse. If you strap someone into a hang gliding harness who isn't a trained & competent pilot and launch them off a hill, they will definitely die!
Why then do people think they don't need experience to safely & competently navigate a 10 tonne, 40' foot sailing vessel across an ocean?

Hey, I'm an adventurous guy and I love the spirit, get up & go and desire BUT do it right and do it as safe as you can. If you bursting and can't wait - that's also easy. Crew on someone else's boat, that way you get the adventure & experience without the big risk. Plenty of skippers looking for crew......
Good advice, but they still do it. You might want to checkout Tania Aebi's book Maiden Voyage. I don't believe she had much experience at all when she left NEW YORK CITY (sorry couldn't resist the Caps) on her 26' Contessa to sail around the world. Now she did receive lots of advice along the way her being not bad looking and 18 years old................
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Old 17-11-2012, 06:25   #42
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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Good advice, but they still do it. .....

I bet the numner of newbie sailors that go off shore compared to the number that say they will is very minor!

I also bet hardy anyone going off shore has enough experience and a prepared boat compared to the requirements you read here on CF where we talk "get out there" but then stress "fear of" stuff.
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Old 17-11-2012, 07:15   #43
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Re: Blue Water Survival

And speaking of a Contessa 26, you gotta love this guy and his boat:

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Old 17-11-2012, 07:16   #44
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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I bet the numner of newbie sailors that go off shore compared to the number that say they will is very minor! (...)
Well. Definitions. You know ;-)

The way I see it at least 50% (and I bet way more than a half) of participants of a major cruising rally are ignorant as to how systems on their boats work, how to fix things when they go wrong and how to manage the most basic emergency situations. They also lack basic understanding of how to set up and sail their boat across the pond.

They are not newbies as most will have quite a good number of miles gained in summer trips across the channel or within the Med.

So to say, many sailors who venture offshore are, for all practical purposes, newbies.

b.
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Old 17-11-2012, 08:25   #45
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Re: Blue Water Survival

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I bet the numner of newbie sailors that go off shore compared to the number that say they will is very minor!

I also bet hardy anyone going off shore has enough experience and a prepared boat compared to the requirements you read here on CF where we talk "get out there" but then stress "fear of" stuff.
Too right! The difference between theory and practice is best illustrated by communism; top theory, crap reality.

Many of the latter day sailing pundits often forget they also learned by trial and error.
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