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Old 16-03-2013, 16:40   #16
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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
Don't get carried away with having the clew too high. We never like to have it higher than an arm can reach. The old rule of an inch per foot of boat length is decent with a bit of an addition for cruisers.
An Interesting rule. Thanks.

The Genoa on Snow Petrel was a fair bit higher than this rule being nearer 2 inches per foot. But because she was only 33 feet long it was still below head height. I wouldn't want to go as high cut as a yankee. But it wants to be well above the lifelines.

If you go too high as the sail is furled the reefed sail ends up way off the deck.

However It's easier to tack a higher clewed sail and you can see under it.
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Old 16-03-2013, 16:57   #17
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
An Interesting rule. Thanks.

The Genoa on Snow Petrel was a fair bit higher than this rule being nearer 2 inches per foot. But because she was only 33 feet long it was still below head height. I wouldn't want to go as high cut as a yankee. But it wants to be well above the lifelines.

If you go too high as the sail is furled the reefed sail ends up way off the deck.
Yeah, I always thought this was a good thing if you've got water breaking aboard.
However It's easier to tack a higher clewed sail and you can see under it.
Frankly, pretty hard to reach the clew unless you are beating anyway and if you have a sheet problem you probably want to crack off from the beat... I like to see under tha sail at all times. Used to drive me crazy racing with a decksweeper!
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Old 16-03-2013, 17:17   #18
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

i put another forestay up behind my genoa furler and use it for jibs no.1 and storm, i made it easy to unclip the stay and tie it back for when im using the genoa, mainly for lighter winds and downwind. i like having hanked on sails as well as the furler, gives more options when trouble comes along. I dont think changing sails on a furler at sea is a viable option, especially not swapping down to smaller sails.
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Old 16-03-2013, 18:13   #19
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

I think SoPac asks for a big light sail and I think you cannot have a big light genoa that will work fine when the wind pipes up.

My alternatives would be:
- get a smaller (way smaller than 150), relatively strong and flat genoa on the furler.
- plus get a lighter kite style nylon to fly free, (straight luff),

OR

- get a light 150 genoa on the outer furler,
- get a smaller hanked jib for the inner forestay,

b.
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Old 16-03-2013, 23:11   #20
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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This is good if your geometry allows. If the tracks end too far aft AND you wish to not have to move the car from beat to reach, you will need to have a high clew in order that the sheeting angle is constant as you furl or change point. The larger the sail, the higher the clew will need to be. If you can construct a scale drawing of your rig and tracks, draw a line from the center of the luff through the clew and to the track car. This is the geometry necessary for the car to remain stationary as you change point. If the clew is below this line, your car will need to move forward as you fall off. This doesn't matter on a race boast full of crew. The deck sweeper we ran on years ago (Heritage One-Ton) required a lot of attention as we changed point. Our 135 on the Camper requires none. Here are photos of both. Also, the final geometry of the 135 with the resulting high clew. One other advantage of a high clew is big water passes easily below it. The dimension work-up shows the tracks and misc. work to identify the spreader patches, mast, etc. Dimensions are inches. We cannot reach the clew from the deck.
When we design a sail, we are able to predict sheeting angles quite accurately. So our recommendation to a client lacking proper hardware would be to add the hardware rather than compromise the sail. This can be as simple as adding a padeye to which a snatch block on an adjustable length of line can be attached. Or adding track of course. We can alter the size of a sail to fit the boat's arrangements.

We consider the ability to reach the clew from deck a safety issue. If someone needs to deal with chafe or replace a sheet, the last thing we'd want to see them forced to do would be to drop the headsail.

That's not to say we don't build headsails with clews that are out of reach. Like any other business, "the customer is always right" and all we do is offer advice. It's always up to the customer to choose what's best.
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Old 17-03-2013, 05:48   #21
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

casual survey of cruiser friends in the caribbean where trades are always blowing - Most folks (us included) had a 110. I also had an assymetrical which never got used until I was on the way home to Chesapeake Bay

My experience may be a little biased - We had no schedule and so never sailed if the wind was too light or too heavy to be comfortable (apart from the long passages there and back)
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Old 17-03-2013, 07:29   #22
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post
(...)

We consider the ability to reach the clew from deck a safety issue. If someone needs to deal with chafe or replace a sheet, the last thing we'd want to see them forced to do would be to drop the headsail.
(...)
On any bigger yacht that clew being anything lower than the top of the head of the tallest foredeck crew can wipe them out.

Safety for some danger for others.

b.
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Old 17-03-2013, 07:56   #23
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

i use a 100 per cent roller jib. comfortable. came with boat and was reefed the first 1/2 of my adventure so far.

here when we get wind, is WIND, or there is nothing.
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Old 19-03-2013, 15:21   #24
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

Thanks everybody! Some good info here.
What weight of sail do you recomend?
Thanks
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Old 19-03-2013, 17:00   #25
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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Thanks everybody! Some good info here.
What weight of sail do you recomend?
Thanks
IMHO

big sail - light cloth,
small sail - heavier cloth,

If you want a big light sail that will take some stronger gusts in its stride, (well, all within limits) then look towards newer technologies (laminated sails, spectra cloth, etc.).

I find most Dacron cruising fore sails to be too heavy. The only sail I like to be 'heavy' (does not have to be heavy but does have to be extra strong) is the storm sail.

b.
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Old 19-03-2013, 17:28   #26
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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What weight of sail do you recomend?
Assuming you're talking about a cruising dacron, I think it worthwhile to flip the two questions of sail size and sailcloth weight around. Working with an 8oz cloth is a lot more pleasant than working with 10oz, right? So why not ask, at the beginning, for a boat your size what's the biggest sail you should build out of 8oz dacron? A sailmaker can figure that for you pretty quickly, depending on the quality of the fabric.

If your sailmaker says that the biggest you should go with 8oz on your boat is 120%, bingo, you've just answered both questions.
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Old 20-03-2013, 02:07   #27
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

I am not sure of the specific weight of cloth for your size of boat, it depends on too many factors, not the least being the what cloth you choose, Have faith in your sailmakers advice, or get another one that you can trust.

Intelligent design and cloth selection means you can have a lighter sail that rolls up smaller that is just as strong as a heavy cheap sail and holds it's shape over a wider wind range.

For furlers I love the idea, (as a sailor, not a sail maker, they might well have better ideas) of twin ply leaches or radial sails. These give the ability to reduce the weight in the lower stressed areas at the luff and middle of the sail and still retain the strength at the leach where it is needed.

The other thing I like is very strong leach-cords and the cord securing points (spectra webbing?) that can hold the two parts of the sail together if it starts to shred itself.

If a furling sail ever rips right through the leach in a blow you are in a major world of hurt, it will be very hard to get the bits of sail to roll away properly. and those pretty streamers of shredded sail flapping from your furler will cause all sorts of havoc...

On the other hand even with a large tear in the sail but with the leach still being held together the sail will usually roll away sort of OK giving you time to wait for a calm patch to unroll the full sail and drop it.

I love my furler, but I am pedantic about the condition of the leach and the anti-chafe on my spreaders.
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Old 20-03-2013, 07:11   #28
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

To add some to very good post above from Snowpetrel:

In a well executed furling sail, there may be many layers of safety:
- the leech cord,
- the leech of the sail,
- the leech tabbing,
- the hem of the UV block.

Possibly totaling 5 layers of canvas plus the cord.

b.
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Old 20-03-2013, 11:18   #29
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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On any bigger yacht that clew being anything lower than the top of the head of the tallest foredeck crew can wipe them out.

Safety for some danger for others.

b.
Agree. Best height about half an arms length above the head. We did a catamaran solent with a massive stainless clewboard. That thing could kill an elephant.
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Old 20-03-2013, 11:47   #30
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Re: Blue water jib sail size

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Have faith in your sailmakers advice, or get another one that you can trust.

For furlers I love the idea, (as a sailor, not a sail maker, they might well have better ideas) of twin ply leaches or radial sails. These give the ability to reduce the weight in the lower stressed areas at the luff and middle of the sail and still retain the strength at the leach where it is needed.

The other thing I like is very strong leach-cords and the cord securing points (spectra webbing?) that can hold the two parts of the sail together if it starts to shred itself.
Excellent advice in that first sentence. To add to that, it's best if the sailmaker has actually done some cruising because we've seen sails made by sailmakers we respect immensely fail during extended use.

Twin ply leeches have their benefits and drawbacks. On a furling sail the twin ply adds to the rolled size which increases windage. Sometimes there are issues with the different wear properties.

Radial construction is not something we generally recommend with woven material (IE: Dacron). Radial laminates are quite proven.

Leech lines should be a good quality synthetic like Spectra or Vectran. Polyester stretches so you have to re-adjust the leech line tension. We usually "overhead" the leech lines on our cruising sails so the adjustment is made from the relative safety of the tack. Leech and foot line cleats should be aluminum, not plastic/nylon. We fit a flap covering the cleat, secured by velcro, so the cord cannot catch on anything.
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