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Old 24-11-2008, 14:18   #46
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[quote=Charlie;226546]This is an unfair comparrison b/c the $7k figure was hiring someone else to do the work and the $1k figure was me doing the work. I did not have the skill to do the work on the rod rigging./quote]

Duly noted, but the question remains the same. Would the cost of dual smaller rigs be the same, higher or lower than a single master.

My kneejerk reaction was always that it would cost more to have two. But prices seem to be exponential, not linear. So I am actually not sure there.

For instance. on a taller mast, not only are the stays longer, but thicker, and there are "break points" where these wires get extremely expensive.
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Old 24-11-2008, 14:26   #47
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Some small boats have great engine, electrical, and plumbing access. I have a work bench and am able to carry spare parts for most things on my boat, including mast splices, plywood fore shoring, 400' rig wire, electrical tools, etc. There is plenty of room.

I do not think a bigger boat is the answer. It's just what people convince themselves of. Less heal, push-button tacking, big open spaces with sofas, washer, refrigerator with icemaker, AC, jacuzzi (...), etc. All stuff that has made its way from land to sea, establishing itself as normality.

Just a few posts ago someone said "a bowthruster is necessary". No, it's necessary when you have a boat that is too big for the amount of people on board. Small, modest boats don't need them. I've docked 135' brigantine that doesn't have a bow thruster. But she does have 25+ crew.

Play ball!

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Old 24-11-2008, 15:48   #48
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Big or small. Buy what you are happy with.
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Old 24-11-2008, 15:52   #49
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One thing to bear in mind is that the size of the boat does not go up linearly with length because a boat is a three-dimensional object.

If you take one unit (1.0) and add 26% (1.26) to all three dimensions, you have doubled volume. [1 cubed is 1; 1.26 cubed is 2.] Thus, in very rough terms, a boat that is 26% longer than another boat is 200% bigger in volume.

This means that a 37' boat is almost twice a big as a 30' boat. A 50' boat is nearly twice as big as a 40' boat.

This doesn't work out perfectly because not all three dimensions are increased equally with length, but it gives you an idea of how little extra boat length is needed to double volume. Much less than what many people think.

Try comparing displacements some time of similarly designed and built boats of different sizes. That too can give you a rough idea of the increase in volume (size), particularly if the boats are from the same designer and builder.
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Old 24-11-2008, 16:18   #50
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Big or small. Buy what you are happy with.
Absolutely, but I would add "...and can afford."

Also many people tend to forget that if one can afford a super yacht then one can afford a small sail boat as well if one wants as it will be small change in comparison, and maybe another sorta in between, say 40-50 foot or so. And maybe one powered and one sail. Is all a matter of wherewithall.

In discussions of this sort there is always a common thread from many that any boat bigger and more expensive (in both capital, maintenance and operating costs) than they have or can afford, must be too expensive for anyone or is some other form of waste or unfortunate burden.

Anyway, must get back up on deck beside the pool now else the bikini'ed wimmin will forget that my massage and cool drink are due . Later will be craning the Boston Whaler 235 Conquest over the side for an afternoon's fishing then back for a very nice meal prepared by our chef. Mmmm, crew have everything nice and shiny polished too.

Pity that family over the way there in their cramped, wet, tippy, power starved little sail boat - perhaps invite them over for a meal? Nah, they usually start on about how small boats are best and big ones too much trouble and expense. They never seem to realise that I pay others to look after my troubles; and money, well I have enuff of that so what the hell .

I wish !!!
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Old 24-11-2008, 17:40   #51
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It would be fun to give it a go for a year or two eh MidLandOne..

OK..this is getting just a wee bit blown out of proportion here me thinks

So I just did a quick cost break down of my 41' Irwin Ketch...I can totally re-rig the entire standing rigging doing every thing myself other then the required goose neck swagged fitting needed for my lowers on both masts with all stay-locks and all new 1x19 wire for 2269.00 bucks...What's the big deal?

Now if that would kill ownership for some of you guys having to do that every 15 years.... well.... maybe sail boat ownership is not for you..

The 54 Irwin Ketch in my marina If I did the take off right from the Factory specs would cost just shy of 1300.00 more to be 1 wire sizes bigger from 5/16 to 3/8.

IMHO standing rigging is one of the least expencive upgrades and or expences on a boat..Sails will far out strip standing rigging costs ( For wire anyway )..

I spent less then 2000 dollors for maintance of my boat last year..I spent 22,000.00 on upgrades...that is not the same thing and did not have to be spent so you cant use that amount in calculating the expense of keeping the boat...what you can count is 100.00 per month more for morage so 1200.00 more then to keep a 32' boat as thats the cut off at my marina if I remember corectly.

So far it is the labor intensiveness of a bigger boat I have found to be cubed not so much the cost of ownership.

I have said this before but I will mention it again I have two ruptured discs in my back.. if it wernt for standing vertical everywhere I go and almost every thing I do on my boat I could not own it...some times there is more to a person owning what they do then the perceived need to show off..

And if that 54 ever comes up for sale I hope to buy it...cus the engine access is a dream compared to mine..my back would love me for it.
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Old 24-11-2008, 18:29   #52
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It would be fun to give it a go for a year or two eh MidLandOne..

OK..this is getting just a wee bit blown out of proportion here me thinks

So I just did a quick cost break down of my 41' Irwin Ketch...I can totally re-rig the entire standing rigging doing every thing myself other then the required goose neck swagged fitting needed for my lowers on both masts with all stay-locks and all new 1x19 wire for 2269.00 bucks...What's the big deal?

Now if that would kill ownership for some of you guys having to do that every 15 years.... well.... maybe sail boat ownership is not for you..

The 54 Irwin Ketch in my marina If I did the take off right from the Factory specs would cost just shy of 1300.00 more to be 1 wire sizes bigger from 5/16 to 3/8.

IMHO standing rigging is one of the least expencive upgrades and or expences on a boat..Sails will far out strip standing rigging costs ( For wire anyway )..

I spent less then 2000 dollors for maintance of my boat last year..I spent 22,000.00 on upgrades...that is not the same thing and did not have to be spent so you cant use that amount in calculating the expense of keeping the boat...what you can count is 100.00 per month more for morage so 1200.00 more then to keep a 32' boat as thats the cut off at my marina if I remember corectly.

So far it is the labor intensiveness of a bigger boat I have found to be cubed not so much the cost of ownership.

I have said this before but I will mention it again I have two ruptured discs in my back.. if it wernt for standing vertical everywhere I go and almost every thing I do on my boat I could not own it...some times there is more to a person owning what they do then the perceived need to show off..

And if that 54 ever comes up for sale I hope to buy it...cus the engine access is a dream compared to mine..my back would love me for it.
The rigging was just a number that I had in my head and used that as an example. As you say sails, engine HP, upgrades need to be included too b/c the upgrades for the bigger boat are going to cost more. All I know is that I could redo my entire Capri 22 with a new sails, standing rigging, outboard and tricked out racing gear for less than some of the estimates that I got for repowering my 41' boat.
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Old 24-11-2008, 18:57   #53
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We figure 1 to 2% of "new replacement costs" to maintain the boat. Note: this is only for private ownership not commercial ownership.

Maintenance costs are: sails, bottom paint, gear, engines, oil, zincs, running rigging, standing rigging, instruments.............. quite endless actually.

If you buy a forty footer for $80k but the new sister sells for $500k then you will probably spend on average $5k to $10k per year (1-2% of $500k) to maintain it. Understand, you may have a few light years ($2k) but the big year ($25k) is coming.

Honestly though, the true cost of boat ownership is depreciation.
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Old 24-11-2008, 20:52   #54
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It seems to my young brain that money is too often spent on frivolous things. No, I don't have a lot, but I'm in college and don't work, so that is to be expected. But if people would spend and own in moderation while using their excess money in some way to benefit other people, everyone could, potentially, be much happier. Of course, they'd have to demand their governments not be capitalist, world-dominating, evil-doer-calling miscreants.

Seeing as that is out of the realm of feasibility, we may as well buy bigger boats. That's what why we live in America, after all!

Yes, I understand the dispersion of profit through industry, service, etc.

Cheers,
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Old 24-11-2008, 21:08   #55
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If I could not spend my money on friviolus things I would not work for it and let you take care of me and my clan..

I would then have to stop giving 600 bucks a month to charity every month as well...unless you wanted to pick that up too..

You wont be a broke collage student forever unless that is your life's ambition ..That is the wonderful thing about capitalism.. it gives you that choice..

Nothing wrong with a small boat ...nothing wrong with a HUGE one either.

Hope that helps
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Old 24-11-2008, 23:23   #56
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Blahman
Where did the assumption come from that having a bigger boat means your going to have electric winches, washer dryer, Jacuzzi,......I don’t have those.
Yes I have a bow thruster...it goes nicely with my fuuuull keel and 5ft of freeboard when stern-to docking in the med.
I don’t have a gen...or aircon...or microwave...my freezer-fridge is a single holding plate/spill over.
I think that automatically assuming that bigger is to have room for more bells and whistles is not fair to those of us with bigger boats that are fans of KISS.
Yes it costs more for the odds and sods...
When you lived on land....was it in a caravan, or a house?
By the way…I’ve looked at your pics…..you do nice work
Your it..
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Old 25-11-2008, 04:21   #57
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You wont be a broke collage student forever unless that is your life's ambition ..That is the wonderful thing about capitalism.. it gives you that choice..
One last comment from me, I couldn't resist. Your capitalism comment... yep, I guess I chose to go broke because of the financial breakdown of the good ol' capitalism system. Now I don't watch the news anymore, way too entertaining for me.

And, by the way, I really do like big boats, too!

I'm outta here... Cheers!
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Old 25-11-2008, 04:56   #58
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42' is too big. 65' is ridiculous. An older couple on a 65' boat is an accident waiting to happen..
I kinda like being considered ridiculous by you young whippersnappers who seem to judge a person by what you see in front of him rather than all that past experience he brings to the table, which you can’t even possibly imagine.

From running offshore salvage tugs and square riggers, cruise ships and superyachts I am quite comfortable running my little 65 footer and as long as my knees hold out, expect to be enjoying it long after you’ve graduated to the real world.
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Old 25-11-2008, 06:07   #59
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Blahman
Where did the assumption come from that having a bigger boat means your going to have electric winches, washer dryer, Jacuzzi,......I don’t have those.
It's much easier to make broad, generalized statements. And large boats do tend to have more stuff - they can. Also, thanks.

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I kinda like being considered ridiculous by you young whippersnappers who seem to judge a person by what you see in front of him rather than all that past experience he brings to the table, which you can’t even possibly imagine.
Fair enough.

My opinions stem from having delivered a few 45-63' sailboats, worked aboard three tallships and sailed a bunch of smaller boats. On all the big boats, I have been concerned with the size of things. I know, even being 21 and around my physical prime, that if I were hurt or something major broke, I would likely be unable to deal with it on my own (or with one or two other people.)

I am sure experience helps a lot! I've been much more daft on boats in the past, and am still compared to many others. But my limited experience says big, undercrewed, amenity-ladden boats are asking for trouble.

Breakfast time.

Cheers,
Aaron N.
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Old 25-11-2008, 06:37   #60
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in this part (nth oz) of the tropics we have 8m tides, most of the bigger yachts are moored that far away from land in order to stay upright on a spring low tide that on a high tide they arent in protected water at all. i've met cruising couples on 50'+ yachts who were looking for something smaller, i've met cirumnavigators on large yachts looking to do the same, i havent met anyone on a comfortable 27'+ looking to get a 50'+

i was knocked over whilst crossing the tasman in my 28' monohull, it took ages to tidy up the mess, the mess in a bigger yacht?.... cringe
I agree with the above. I have a 32 foot boat and I wouldn't go past 38. I see older people struggle with thicker lines, and sails and anchors when it's necessary to do a change or to put away for winter. In my experience most of the ones with big boats I talk to would trade down and the ones with smaller comfortable boats are happy. Also, in the Med for a boat my size you can easily pay $50-$100 a day for dock space so can you imagine a 50 footer? And there is more room for smaller boats in the older harbors while the big ones have to anchor outside in the swell and then dinghy back and forth. But if you have the money for the power winches and the in-mast furling and the crew to do the work, hey, why not a 100 footer. That's what I'd like to trade up to. LOL!
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