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Old 24-11-2008, 07:06   #31
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CSY man Would you buy a larger CSY? What larger boats would be on your list when the time comes?
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:04   #32
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Not sure what all that means except to deliver a message that you have made up your mind. Furthermore, it and the dinghy type comparision examples you gave above indicate to me that you either do not understand the issues or are just trying to put matters at large by muddying the waters with examples which are entirely irrelevant to what has been said. So best I leave it at that and not respond to any further comment you may make on this topic.
Last-wordism.

What it meant is, from a statistics point of view (something I do) and with a very bad source of numbers (this board of cruisers), it looks to me that there's no evidence big boats are inherently less likely to be knocked down, or that small boats are more likely to be.

My personal opinion is that safety is at best a minor factor. The real justification for a small boat is cost, and anyone who is not constrained by the dollar figure should choose the larger boat. Which is what I said in the first place.
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:08   #33
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OK. You're all right. The bigger the boat the better.
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:15   #34
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More waterline =s more speed. Which =s less time exposed to weather. That is a safety factor. I know, because I have owned both small & large to cruise in....i2f
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:20   #35
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CSY man Would you buy a larger CSY? What larger boats would be on your list when the time comes?
Hmm, yeah a CSY 44 would be on the list. So would a Super Amaru 54 (Amel) or a Oyster 55, or uh, a Deerfoot...Plenty of big boats out there, only the bank account is slowing me down.

That being said, I live on canal and the size boat you can have is limited by beam.
Also harder to turn a big boat in the 60' wide canal

Can't say I am "lusting" for a big boat, but again, if the situation was different, sure I would get something bigger, right now I am happy as clam as the boat is paid for, so is the cars and the credit cards, another year or 2 and my shack will be paid off too.
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:30   #36
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Originally Posted by Amgine View Post
Last-wordism.

What it meant is, from a statistics point of view (something I do) and with a very bad source of numbers (this board of cruisers), it looks to me that there's no evidence big boats are inherently less likely to be knocked down, or that small boats are more likely to be.
After stating that your data source (this board) is a very bad source of data you then try to reach a conclusion with that data. In terms of statistics (something I also do) this is the worst sin of statistical analysis.

There is insufficient data to conclude statistically one way or another - end of story.

Buy a big boat because you like a big stateroom. Buy a small boat if you can't afford a big boat.

What is possible is to analyze with some certainty the stability of each boat based on long established naval engineering standards. This is beyond the ken of a statistical analyst and requires a naval engineer.

Also, you have to very specifically define you terms. The participants here seem to want to asses aboats resistance to a) Roll-over - meaning the mast goes in the water through at least 180 degrees - caused by a combination of sea and wind and may include broaching. Knock down - maning the mast goes into the water at about 90 degrees caused by wind only or a combination of wind and seas and may include broaching.

With no statistics or naval engineer to back me up, intuitively I would take a longer, bigger and heavier boat with weight distributed more around the lower 1/3 of the boat.

My 25 footer @ 4,500lb vs. your 53 footer @ 17,000 lbs is no contest - to argue otherwise would simply make me pig headed.
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Old 24-11-2008, 08:56   #37
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My boat is 41' long. It cost me $10k to replace the Standing rigging. It was rather pricey but I have rod rigging. The price to replace with wire was $7k. There was probably about $1k to $1.5k of extra work to make the wire rigging work in the rod rigging holders. A freind had a Niagra 35 his cost was $3.5k.

The price difference is huge as you go up in size. Here is what I did:

I got estimates on what it would cost to replace key items on the boats that I was looking at. I found that under 39' was the best bet for me b/c that is what I could afford to maintain.

On a 36' boat I could have replaced all the rigging myself for about $1k.

In General:

Smaller boats are much cheaper to take care of. Smaller boats have less systems so are easier to maintain. (Compare the cost of an electric winch with the cost of a two speed self tailer compared to the cost of a single speed non self tailer) Less maintenance means more time to enjoy sailing.

Into this calculus you need to throw in: The Admiral is always right and the corallary -- A bigger boat is cheaper than a divorce. If you can solve the equation let us know.
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Old 24-11-2008, 09:22   #38
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Does Size Matter

The Admiral said size does matter. Anyone who begs to differ is jealous. The Admirals words not mine, please don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 24-11-2008, 10:50   #39
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We're still talking boats...right?
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Old 24-11-2008, 11:21   #40
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In the grand scheme of things, a "big" boat looks pretty much the same as a "little" boat once you leave the dock and are sitting out there in there in the middle of the ocean. I would suggest that the only reason a "big" boat might be safer is primarily because it spends more time at the dock getting ready to go somewhere since it's got so very many more things to fix and maintain. I don't hink I've ever heard the phrase "Go simple, go large!". That's just my humble opinion as the owner of a 28-foot cutter that I would trust to go anywhere.


Hey you just gave me my new signature line....Thanks Mate
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Old 24-11-2008, 13:08   #41
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Here is an addon thought based on charlies reply being a "norm".

If the rigging for a 41' is 7 times more expensive than a 36'. Wouldn't a larger two masted boat be cheaper on the rigging Since the main mast is essentially a smaller mast? Even though you have two of them.

Further. Would the smaller sail area of a ketch be preferable to singlehanding? even though you have more sails to manage? In other words, is it better to manage two smaller mainsails or one large one for a singlehander or short handed crew?

As you can tell, I'm still working out my boat plans.
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Old 24-11-2008, 13:56   #42
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I'll play.

Go smaller. Larger vessels feel more comfortable until something breaks, or you foul a line, or you can't get the 1200ft/2 main to come down in a 50kt squall. When the energy enhancing devices (electric winch, bow thruster, auto reef, etc) breaks, big boats are scary. Plus they cost more to maintain, encourage waste and are somewhat akin to taking a condo out on the sea. You don't need all that crap. It just gives you an excuse to spend money and stay in port.

42' is too big. 65' is ridiculous. An older couple on a 65' boat is an accident waiting to happen. Marketing and the American "bigger is better" mindset have made it commonplace, not reason.

I know I'm in the minority, and it's damn unfortunate. I'm sick of reading and hearing about people who've overcommitted themselves and suffered due to it. I wish people could be happy with moderation rather than excess.

The argument should be "Should I go 28' or 35'?" That's plenty of boat for any couple.

My biased, socialist $.02.

You're it.

Fair leads,
Aaron N.

p.s. the socialist comment is a play on my "moderation" comment.
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Old 24-11-2008, 14:14   #43
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I don't understand the big boat never leaves the dock. I have lived in marinas for nearly 20 years now, and all sizes stay tied to the dock. As well as all sizes getting out on the water.

Big, medium, little, mono, or multi what's the difference. Get out on the water when you can, and wave to your fellow sailors.

I cruised a 30ft mono, and because of it's lack of speed. Sometimes I was caught in weather. Larger boats making 50% more speed were in harbor enjoying the safety it offers. I swore I would get more waterline when the chance came. Just because of what happens in weather. I never imagined I could someday afford what I sail now. I have now doubled my average speed plus some. That's what a bigger boat means to me.....
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Old 24-11-2008, 14:14   #44
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Originally Posted by csiunatc View Post
Here is an addon thought based on charlies reply being a "norm".

If the rigging for a 41' is 7 times more expensive than a 36'. Wouldn't a larger two masted boat be cheaper on the rigging Since the main mast is essentially a smaller mast? Even though you have two of them.

This is an unfair comparrison b/c the $7k figure was hiring someone else to do the work and the $1k figure was me doing the work. I did not have the skill to do the work on the rod rigging.

Ketches have advantages and disadvantages. 1 advantage. They look real pretty. One disadvantage if there are two masts there are twice as many parts to take care of.
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Old 24-11-2008, 14:15   #45
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Blahman,

Apart from electric winches etc. (Which btw. are on smaller boats too as far as i know)

Wouldn't what you said be exactly what i proposed? That a 42 foot ketch would have a main comparable to a 35 foot single master?

2. "More comfortable until something breaks"
Have you ever tried getting into the engine compartment of a 28 footer? I don't know that hiring a full time Midget mechanic is cheaper than havign a little more space to work..

Another one of my reasons for wanting a slightly larger boat is the capacity to have a workshop and carry the nececsary spare parts to do any repairs.

Again, my thinking is that it might be more to maintain, but at least you can carry the tools you need without having the waterline at the portholes.

Yes i know that my statements on smaller boats are exaggerated, but i think you get the jist.

Oh.. and you had a better position until you said "socialist" I grew up in Sweden, so i have no love for socialism at all..
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