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Old 05-07-2017, 01:19   #1336
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
A few of other things we may also trial are:
-A bridal arrangement with two snubbers that pass over the bow cleats. The force tends to be on one snubber or the other but this may help reduce sheering. Also, snubbers do break and having two means there is always one in reserve.
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This is exactly what I do and having anchored in a few typhoons the independent nylon lines wide apart and the large loop of chain has removed a lot of the bow sheer.

Worked better than one lead from the bow roller.

Other advantages is that you can adjust under load to weathercock if desired in a strong current and shift / replace chafe points if concerned.

I remember when you showed us your beautiful bollards, it appeared that they were not quite high enough to clear the bulwark top for a snubber bridal.

If that is the case, I would consider inserting a stainless polished fairlead in the bulwark for that specific purpose to protect the topside paint.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:20   #1337
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

KM yachtbuilders take all the worry about quality work and leave the purchaser to concentrate on what they want. Such a relief in this world to find someone to do that.

I dont think SW and Noelex will have too much to worry about apart from minor tightening up of bolts etc on the shakedown cruise....

Aluminium has always been a concern for me in boats, yet a little research has shown that isolating certain metals, making sure that the ground is on the right places and off the right places, that Aluminium is a stable and viable strong material for the hull. Its not difficult to do.. I like aluminium for other projects, is strong durable and so easy to fix when a boo boo occurs.

A sub 40 foot Catamaran in Aluminium would be amazing...
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:22   #1338
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Dockhead...
I put your name down to have one of these built by KM..
The model is the Axonite..

Your welcome.
Ange introduced me to the owner of KM, and I sailed there last year on my way back to the UK. I saw their boat under construction (by the way, what's the name???).

I was extremely impressed, and KM is at the top of my list for where I want to have my next boat built. Assuming I ever have that much money, but there is some recent good news in my business which makes it seem more likely.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:25   #1339
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Yes, we are having a bow thruster (Sidepower 8kw @ 24V).

The windlass will have a warping drum, but only a standard cone clutch, not the external band brake. We will have a Muir chainstopper.

SWL
That's the same bow thruster as I have on my Moody. I don't have anything to compare it with so can't really comment, but I'm pretty satisfied with it. Later Moody 54's (mine was the prototype) had the bigger, 15 horsepower Side Power, if that tells you anything. I wouldn't mind a bit more power, but your boat is a bit smaller so 10hp will probably be good.

If it's not too late, I would advise thinking about that external band brake. They are awesome. Makes a huge difference in controlling the chain, and reduces risk of buggering the gearbox. Another line of defense behind the chain stopper. Has nothing to do with the clutch -- different function entirely.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:01   #1340
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I would 2nd the value of the brakeband as a self release shock absorber when backing down on the chain.
The only time I power out chain is when Med docking.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:36   #1341
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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A sub 40 foot Catamaran in Aluminium would be amazing...
Too heavy weavis, I like aluminium cats but the cross over in weight happens about 14 meters any less and the aluminium boat is heavier than a composite any more and its lighter, roughly speaking.
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Old 05-07-2017, 14:18   #1342
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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If it's not too late, I would advise thinking about that external band brake. They are awesome. Makes a huge difference in controlling the chain, and reduces risk of buggering the gearbox. Another line of defense behind the chain stopper. Has nothing to do with the clutch -- different function entirely.
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I would 2nd the value of the brakeband as a self release shock absorber when backing down on the chain.
The only time I power out chain is when Med docking.
That's two votes for a band brake from very experienced sailors whose opinion I highly respect.

Having never used one, it wasn't something we considered. The advantage of a band brake seems to be that it acts directly on the gypsy, therefore bypassing the anchor winch motor and gear box and reducing stress on these. Is this correct?

Perhaps I am missing something, but I can't see an enormous advantage over a cone clutch when we have such an oversized anchor winch for the boat size. We used the cone clutch on our old anchor winch to control the rate of release of the chain. With a cone clutch it is easy to allow the anchor to freefall and control the output of chain. In addition, we have a devil's claw and chain stopper and snubber. When backing down on the chain the snubber was always secured. Why is is a band brake so superior?

It seems to me if you forgot to loosen it and tried to operate the winch, it would stress the system awfully. It is also beneficial to keep systems at the salty bow as simple as possible.

Unfortunately, if a band brake is considered really important it is probably too late to do anything now . We thought about the specifications long and hard. Any changes or additions during the build are super costly and also frustrating for the boat yard, so should not be undertaken lightly. In addition, the winch has probably already been ordered. Lots of our gear, even including items like the oven were purchased months ago.

If needed, can it be added later?

SWL
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Old 05-07-2017, 18:40   #1343
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I am extremely happy with my Maxwell cone clutch but noticed that many don't use a clutch at all (they use electric down which I only use for short adjustments). I think my cone clutch is direct on the gypsy.
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:42   #1344
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
That's two votes for a band brake from very experienced sailors whose opinion I highly respect.

Having never used one, it wasn't something we considered. The advantage of a band brake seems to be that it acts directly on the gypsy, therefore bypassing the anchor winch motor and gear box and reducing stress on these. Is this correct?

Perhaps I am missing something, but I can't see an enormous advantage over a cone clutch when we have such an oversized anchor winch for the boat size. We used the cone clutch on our old anchor winch to control the rate of release of the chain. With a cone clutch it is easy to allow the anchor to freefall and control the output of chain. In addition, we have a devil's claw and chain stopper and snubber. When backing down on the chain the snubber was always secured. Why is is a band brake so superior?

It seems to me if you forgot to loosen it and tried to operate the winch, it would stress the system awfully. It is also beneficial to keep systems at the salty bow as simple as possible.

Unfortunately, if a band brake is considered really important it is probably too late to do anything now . We thought about the specifications long and hard. Any changes or additions during the build are super costly and also frustrating for the boat yard, so should not be undertaken lightly. In addition, the winch has probably already been ordered. Lots of our gear, even including items like the oven were purchased months ago.

If needed, can it be added later?

SWL
While this does not relate directly to your Maxwell winch, there is a fundamental difference between a clutch (of any sort) and a brake. While this obvious when you say it this way, many use the cone clutch as a brake. And we know this works but really it only "sorta works". Clutches are not designed to provide a continuous braking force, they are designed to provide engagement / disengagement process between two dynamic rotational loads, often with some slip initially until the loads are both locked together.

Just as you wouldn't except to continually slip a disk clutch in a manual transmission car or a cone clutch in a marine gearbox, you "shouldn't" purposefully use the cone clutch in a windlass as a brake. Yes, some (many?) of do it and get away with it (for awhile) but it not best practice.

As your Maxwell windlass is clearly oversized anyway, you won't probably have any issues but you will look with green eyes at those with an brake when anchored along side .

As an aside, my itsy bitsy Muir winch was recently redesigned and I got the first of the new type. The cone clutch instead of having two bronze cones, had one bronze and one SS. The SS side quickly galled and locked the clutch. Presumably this was done as cost cutting measure and when challenged about the "design flaw" of using SS as a clutch cone, there was some talk about "it shouldn't be used as a brake and the chain should be powered out".

However to their credit, they realised this wasn't going to happen in the real world and they quickly turned up a bronze cone locally (and after hours) and couriered it to me. I guess (but don't know) the design reverted back to having two bronze cones.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:15   #1345
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
While this does not relate directly to your Maxwell winch, there is a fundamental difference between a clutch (of any sort) and a brake. While this obvious when you say it this way, many use the cone clutch as a brake. And we know this works but really it only "sorta works". Clutches are not designed to provide a continuous braking force, they are designed to provide engagement / disengagement process between two dynamic rotational loads, often with some slip initially until the loads are both locked together.

Just as you wouldn't except to continually slip a disk clutch in a manual transmission car or a cone clutch in a marine gearbox, you "shouldn't" purposefully use the cone clutch in a windlass as a brake. Yes, some (many?) of do it and get away with it (for awhile) but it not best practice.

As your Maxwell windlass is clearly oversized anyway, you won't probably have any issues but you will look with green eyes at those with an brake when anchored along side .

As an aside, my itsy bitsy Muir winch was recently redesigned and I got the first of the new type. The cone clutch instead of having two bronze cones, had one bronze and one SS. The SS side quickly galled and locked the clutch. Presumably this was done as cost cutting measure and when challenged about the "design flaw" of using SS as a clutch cone, there was some talk about "it shouldn't be used as a brake and the chain should be powered out".

However to their credit, they realised this wasn't going to happen in the real world and they quickly turned up a bronze cone locally (and after hours) and couriered it to me. I guess (but don't know) the design reverted back to having two bronze cones.
A good explanation.

In short -- a clutch is NOT a brake, and -- it "shouldn't be used as a brake", as Wotname wrote. If you use the clutch to slow down or hold the chain, you're using the motor and gearbox, which is really not good. If you use a BRAKE, on the other hand, you are really stopping the chain against something solid and something you won't break if you overdo it. Besides that, you're wearing out that thing which connects the motor to the gypsy, if you try to use the clutch as a brake.

With a brake, you have fine control over the chain running out, and when you stop it, it's really stopped, and you can back down on it. It means you don't have moments when the chain isn't really stopped but just hanging from the motor -- can be critically important if you're doing something with the anchor in rough weather.

In my opinion, a windlass without a brake is not a "real" windlass, it's a toy. With a brake, you can actually use it. I never free-fall my anchor for this very reason -- the clutch just doesn't give you enough control, and besides that, on my crappy Lewmar vertical windlass, it's extremely hard to operate, requiring a winch handle and not usable if the windlass is in motion.


My next boat will have Lighthouse or Lofrans horizontal windlass with warping drum, maybe set lower than deck level to reduce snagging of sheets. But a Maxwell just like yours would be my third choice -- but ONLY with the band brake.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:30   #1346
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Unfortunately, if a band brake is considered really important it is probably too late to do anything now . We thought about the specifications long and hard. Any changes or additions during the build are super costly and also frustrating for the boat yard, so should not be undertaken lightly. In addition, the winch has probably already been ordered. Lots of our gear, even including items like the oven were purchased months ago.

If needed, can it be added later?

SWL
As Wotname explained, the cone clutch was not designed as a brake, even though it does add friction to the gypsy hub to slow down the free fall.

It is sort of like slowing down a car with your transmission only. It works but hard to fine tune

The brake bands allows the Gypsy to be finely adjusted based on bottom type, so that you set the resistance for stretching out and then digging in, without ever comming up hard on the windlasses deck fastenings.

Having a purpose designed brake also allows you all kinds of versatility, when untangling fouled ground tackle

On my Lofrans Titan below, the Red handles are independent brakes for each Gypsy so in this design they are positioned inboard of the Gypsy and clutch, manual retrieval system

So I hope for your Maxwell it doesn't take up any more footprint.

Understand very well how the Dutch handle change orders as I have done projects at De Vries and Royal Huisman., but they probably buy local from Dutch Maxwell Distributer, so it may not be a problem.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:00   #1347
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Lassie, I reckon Maxwell will retrofit a brake for you when you turn up in Auckland on your way home or better still, cycle down to Schiedam (about 180 Ks) on Monday and tell 'em CF sent you and you now want a brake. Smile sweetly and pretend your Dutch isn't perfect if they demure. Don't take no for an answer
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:14   #1348
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Lassie, I reckon Maxwell will retrofit a brake for you when you turn up in Auckland on your way home or better still, cycle down to Schiedam (about 180 Ks) on Monday and tell 'em CF sent you and you now want a brake. Smile sweetly and pretend your Dutch isn't perfect if they demure. Don't take no for an answer
I reckon they can mail order the parts and retrofit it themselves. SWL and Noelex are pretty handy, and the topworks of these devices are not all that complicated.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:02   #1349
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Thanks for the explanations everyone. We will look into this and try and retrofit.

Just watching the flipping of a hull here at KM. Amazing to see! We missed out on ours.

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Old 06-07-2017, 05:07   #1350
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I reckon they can mail order the parts and retrofit it themselves. SWL and Noelex are pretty handy, and the topworks of these devices are not all that complicated.
Yeah but...

Those Dutch guys at Maxwells in Schiedam are going to fall over themselves when the Lassie cycles in on a summer's morning with her tale about needing a brake at this late stage. Heck, she might even be able to convince them she's a Kiwi who lives next door to HQ in Auckland - they will be looking not listening.. They might even jump on the train and fit it themselves the day after the launch if she plays her cards right
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