Bestevaer 49ST

[Panope]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thanks for the feedback Steve.

I have enjoyed your thread. You have produced some beautiful aluminium work. I love all the small details .

I wish I had your skills.

Thanks Noelex,

I highly recommend the metal working skills for all boaters. However, this will create a problem for you as you will need to tow a vast, solar-panel covered barge to power the welding equipment.

Steve

[Panope]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

3. Refrigeration
We see a lot of cruising boats that miss much of best season awaiting spare parts or diverting to places they really don't want to visit, simply for repairs to be carried out. The two biggest culprits are generators and refrigeration.
However, refrigeration (particularly for cold drinks in summer) is very nice. We are never in a marina and generally not close enough to shops to buy ice so an ice box, as used on Hawk, is of little use. The plan for the new boat is to fit one or two car fridges (similar to Engels). Compared to a boat fridge, these are only slightly less efficient in terms of power draw, particularly with a bit of added insulation. One can be run a fridge, one as freezer, or both as fridges. Two provide an instant backup. Or to reduce power consumption to a minimium one can switched off and used simply as storage. They are cheap and if they break down they can be thrown away and a new unit purchased with zero installation issues. The main drawback is the overall capacity is low (probably 2 x 40 litres)

I think the rationale for using a portable fridge is sound (I use an engel). However, you might consider having a traditional, built in, top-loading icebox as well.

If (when) you sell this new boat, chances are the buyer will require built-in refrigeration. This will be very difficult to retrofit into an existing galley. With a preexisting ice box, adding a fridge system will be a snap.

On Panope, I freeze water jugs in the Engel when power is abundant (sunny, motoring), then move the ice-jugs to the icebox. Sort of a poor mans holding plate system.

Even if you never use the built-in icebox as a cooler, it will still make for a good storage bin.

Steve

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Panope

If (when) you sell this new boat, chances are the buyer will require built-in refrigeration. This will be very difficult to retrofit into an existing galley. With a preexisting ice box, adding a fridge system will be a snap.

While I expect it to be a very long time before it becomes an issue, future use by other owners with different requirements will be considered.

For every system we have left off (like shore power for example) thought will be given to how this would be installed by a future owner, or even ourselves if our situation changed. This requires a lot planning, but as you can gather that is not in short supply .

This is particularly evident for the aluminium work where, for example, low cost plates will be attached so future owners can add spinnaker gear with no metal work.

There has been plenty of space allowed to easily retrofit a conventional boat fridge/freezer solution.

While slightly different, we have used similar concepts in house design. One house we had built had an enormous garage and workshop, which was ideal for my needs. With some pre planning, the electrical systems, lighting and steps were installed along with the relevant government approval so the area was easily converted to extra bedrooms when the house was sold.

[weavis]

like this?

[Jim Cate]

A couple of comments:

The reliability of propane cookers in our experience is pretty damn good. In nearly thirty years of full time cruising with porpane cooking, we have had no catastrophic failures. We replaced the burners on the Eno stove in Insatiable I after about twenty years use, and the safety thermocouples on our present twenty five year old Mariner stove are becoming feisty. Essentially no maintenance beyond cleaning and premptive hose replacement every decade or so... big deal! On both boats we also had propane water heaters (and please don't start telling me how dangerous they are, for we seem to have learned how to cope with them) and they are very useful. We carry two 9 kg tanks, and find that each one lasts between 10 and 12 weeks, depending on how much baking Ann does. Propane is pretty easy to come by in the South Pacific, and isn't expensive most places, so supply isn't a big worry to us. Safety? Well, this iissue has been beaten to death here on CF and elsewhere. We think that with normal care it is safe for our usage.

Relative to DH's comments on cruises being ruined by lack of spare parts, this depends a lot on how your life is structured. From what he has shared, DH's cruises are time constrained and scheduled. For retired, full time cruisers like SWL and Nolex (and us), the degree of aggravation afforded by having to wait for DHL is far less important. Yes, it can be a PITA, but mostly one just sends off the order and then enjoys spending a bit more time in some nice place. We strive for reliability through simplicity as much as we can rather than super-engineering DH's "20 systems".

All in all, I really like the approach that Nolex and SWL are taking. I hope that they can resist the blandishments of the folks who strive to complicate their new vessel (as I'm sure they will!).

Finally, the arch problem: they don't have to be too damn ugly, even though most boats would be prettier without them. we've come to appreciate ours, but have chosen not to add davits for various reasons.

So, hang in there, guys... you're doin' great!

Jim

[JPA Cate]

^^^ @ Jim,

The small white dot above the solar panels is the wind generator we mounted off the aft ende of the arch.

Ann

[stevewrye]

Noelex77,

Seems like you have everything covered, you know what you want. Tracy and I hope you enjoy the building process as much as we did with our Boreal44. Those 18 months were sometimes a bit scary seeing France is so far away from Oregon but I would not trade them for a minute.

One little thing that has been amazing that we had put on our Boreal were wave brakes for the forward hatches. An old idea that is rarely used anymore but boy do they work wonderfully when going to weather!

If there is any questions you need answered on having a boat built under EU standards or any question at all please PM us and we will do our best to help you.

Congratulations

Steve and Tracy
SV RC Louise
Boreal 44

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

......All in all, I really like the approach that Nolex and SWL are taking. I hope that they can resist the blandishments of the folks who strive to complicate their new vessel (as I'm sure they will!).
.......
So, hang in there, guys... you're doin' great!
Jim

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

^^^ @ Jim,
Ann

Thanks Jim and Ann

This thread has been fabulous, both for the new suggestions and for challenging our thoughts. Nice to have members so generous with their responses and to have ideas bounced around. Some of our plans will be modified, some won't. I think this thread may also be very useful for anyone else contemplating buying a vessel (production or custom). Lots of great info here.

We are in the good position of planning this new boat after lots of years cruising full time on a similar sized aluminium yacht. We know what systems on board we use, which we don't need and what has worked very well and we definitely want reproduced. We are not approaching this planning trying to guess our requirements.

There is nothing in the new systems that we are changing radically, apart from adding a pilot house, Refleks heater and washing machine (all of which we have lived without for eight years and could easily continue to do so), and because there is no other reasonable alternative, adding an arch and altering dinghy storage. There is nothing we are leaving out that we are currently using (there is lots on board that we are not). We know what our power requirements are, what we are happy doing without and what bits of icing would be nice to add, but not essential (like the washing machine).

One statement I see cropping up more and more nowadays is "there is no need to go cruising without all the comforts of home". This seems to include air conditioning, central heating, induction cooking, bread machines, microwaves, large fridge/freezers, ice makers, washing machines, even dishwashers (all achievable on a boat with generator power, but at a cost in addition to $). The "comforts of home" also mean not worrying about power usage or gas or water consumption, not modifying cooking techniques or types of food eaten......

The old definition of cruising as being "repairs in nice places" is now taking on a whole new meaning. Most of these items people are fitting are simply not as reliable as they are on land. A salt water environment that is being tossed about is about the harshest possible for equipment.

In addition they are much more difficult to fix. Once you are away from your home base, finding reliable mechanics is not easy. In remote cruising grounds they are next to impossible. Who wants run around trying to source things or sit in harbours/marinas waiting for these repairs to be done when there is swimming to do and anchors to look at?

There is also less need for a complicated life - stuck in traffic in a suit on a hot day you need air conditioning. On a boat sitting around in bathers sipping cold drinks, far less so. A bit hot? Jump in for a swim. Making do without labour saving devices just means gym trips are not needed .

Full time cruising is NOTHING like life on land and including all the comforts of home does not make it so. I personally think it only complicates life on board tremendously. One very common reason people stop cruising full time is frustration with constant equipment failure, the difficulties with repairs and how it stuffs up cruising plans.

You really need to experience life on board though to know what you can happily live without. As seen from this thread, personal bottom lines vary tremendously.

(I must admit though the mention of an ice maker has lead me astray a little with planning ).

SWL

PS Our experience with propane for cooking echoes yours - replacing hoses and occasionally spending a couple of minutes cleaning the jets has been all that is needed.

[estarzinger]

^^ well said
I particularly like the observation that one of the greatest "comforts of home" is someone else delivering essentially unlimited power and water.

We were on a club cruise in company up in Newfoundland some years ago. One of the fleet was a 100' super yacht. They had a crisis . . . . Both their ice machines broke at once! The owner sent his private jet for replacements and a spare. . . . We were just snagging small pieces off passing icebergs

[DeepFrz]

It looks great!! Your pilothouse is a big improvement.

More rake would look better, but think about solar gain. I would probably leave it like that.

I also would leave it more upright but try the drawing with an eyebrow.

SWS, IMO your pilot house is much better than the original. When I first saw the pictures I immediately thought that the pilot house was to small.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I also would leave it more upright but try the drawing with an eyebrow.

SWS, IMO your pilot house is much better than the original. When I first saw the pictures I immediately thought that the pilot house was to small.

Thanks for the feedback DeepFrz. I greatly prefer it extended as well.

I think the small box like pilothouse is a very traditional Dutch look and consequently appears right in Dutch eyes. The huge added incentive for me is that it gives us 2m long settees in the pilothouse (important for how we plan to use the area) and in addition there will be what I call a "void" of nearly a metre extending over the salon & galley, creating a very open plan feel to all 3 areas.

How effective are "eyebrows" over slanted windows? I imagine the benefits are more dramatic over windows that are vertical or raked the other way (as on the Expedition 45). There are boats it looks right on, but I think probably not this one. I will have a play with sketching an eyebrow on and see.

SWL

[DeepFrz]

How effective are "eyebrows" over slanted windows? I imagine the benefits are more dramatic over windows that are vertical or raked the other way (as on the Expedition 45).

Yes, that is true. I was looking at it more on the aesthetic point of view.

[monte]

They seem very effective over our vertical windows. About a 120mm verandah all round. You mentioned earlier about shading the pilot house, we never even bother to close the curtains. Probably helpful are the two front opening hatches and lightly tinted Perspex. There would be some, but minimal gain to an overhang over angled windows. One of the reasons I liked the lagoon series when I first saw it 20 odd years ago was the practicality of the vertical windows. Sure it looks a bit like a trawler, but trawlers are built more for practicality than ascetics. I appreciate a sleek state of the art modern racing design as much as anyone, but prefer live aboard a practical design. From that point of view I have no issues with davits and arches looking ugly. All I see is a good practical design that makes good common sense.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Thanks for the feedback DeepFrz. I greatly prefer it extended as well.

I think the small box like pilothouse is a very traditional Dutch look and consequently appears right in Dutch eyes. The huge added incentive for me is that it gives us 2m long settees in the pilothouse (important for how we plan to use the area) and in addition there will be what I call a "void" of nearly a metre extending over the salon & galley, creating a very open plan feel to all 3 areas.

How effective are "eyebrows" over slanted windows? I imagine the benefits are more dramatic over windows that are vertical or raked the other way (as on the Expedition 45).

SWL

I love what you're doing with the pilothouse. If I ever own another boat (seems like my present boat owns me ), I want it to have a pilothouse just like that, and with exactly the same functions you have in mind for it.

How great would it be to have a true "room with a view" over whatever new place you're in. Isn't that the most cool thing about long term cruising -- the view from your home is always changing? You are travelling the world, but you can take your home with you?

My boat has a so-called "raised salon" -- imitation of the Oyster configuration from the '80's. That's all very well for what it is, certainly a big improvement over the cave which is the below-decks salon of a conventional mono. So it means that I have decent views when STANDING in the salon, and some views through hull ports when seated. But you're still down in a cave . And if you have to spend a lot of time below deck -- like in a cold place like here, or you have to spend time working, etc. -- you feel like you're missing out on that interesting view you've acquired by sailing to a new place. At my latitudes it is rarely warm enough to lounge in the cockpit and I often feel like I'm missing out.

How totally cool would it be to be able to sit in your salon and look out over it all.

The catamaran brigade is now going to chime in -- yeah, yeah, we know -- we've all been on cats. For those of us who still want monos, though, this is the tits.

[monte]

:chime: