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**noelex 77** · 08-06-2015, 03:27

On to the great specific suggestions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

1. Indoor watchstanding station with good access to the cockpit. No need for a wheel there – steer with the pilot.

Yes agreed. Perhaps even just with one of the wireless remotes allowing steering while sitting on either the port or starboard sides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

2. Water ballast. More to control heel on long passages than for performance, although you get a big performance boost, too. I’m surprised so few cruising boats have this; the engineering is simple.

This has been fitted to about half the 53 and above sized yachts. AFAIK they have not done it on a 49, but it would be possible. Drawbacks are a loss of space. This is only small as the tank is incorporated into the ribs stringers etc, but unfortunately the location does not fit in well with our interior plan. It is one more potential source of leaks and not quite in keeping with the KISS concept, but I would be interested in any feedback from people who have cruised with a water ballast system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

3. Rig should be designed from scratch considering preventers and barber haulers so you don’t have to jerry rig it later. Sheet leads well inboard and well outboard. I’m now sold on twing sheet leads versus tracks. All these controls should be led intelligently to the cockpit and have clutches, etc. A multitude of winches – can’t have too many.

Yes agreed. As per this thread:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ar-146801.html
We are hoping to avoid a conventional track system.

You can have too many winches when you have to service them and when you have to buy them

.
It is difficult to know how many will be needed until you sail the boat extensively.
Currently debating between 5 or 7. If we fit 5, the backing mounting plates for the other two will be installed. Going for reasonably oversized Anderson STFS series.
At mast:
1x46
Cockpit:
2x62
2x58
+ provision for 2x58.

We are also debating if they should all be manual (KISS remember) or 1-2 electric. The winches are easy to convert to electric at a later date and with their mounting location, this will be very easy to do. Currently we enjoy a bit of exercise with the manual winches on our boat, but we are conscious that if we keep the boat a long time, age or injury could make the electric option essential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

4. If you’re going to have furlers, use electric ones rather than having ropes coming back to the cockpit, especially for in-mast if you’re going to have that (guess you wouldn’t have in-mast furling on a boat like that, however). This is something I’ve realized lately; worth a thread probably.

The jib and staysail furling will be both on manual Furlex 400 furlers. Also considering Reckmann, but the extra cost does not seem justified and with Furlex having a large market share, spares should be easy to buy and available for a long time. Motors for electric furlers at the bow (the wettest part of the boat) do not appeal, especially for a job that is easily done manually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5. Speaking of in-mast furling – after a lot of thought and a couple tens of thousands of miles with in-mast furling, I think I would probably go that way again despite the several serious disadvantages of this system. At least for high latitudes or anywhere with likelihood of tough weather. Being able to reef and unreef from the cockpit without changing course is pure gold in hard weather and/or shorthanded, and always having just the right amount of sail up largely compensates for the loss of performance.

Our current boat has an in-boom Leisure Furl system that works well, so it is a debate at the moment, but we leaning to simple slab reefing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

6. Sail locker forward. Lots of deck storage, even though that will reduce accommodation. I don’t need massive “staterooms”; let the sleeping accomodation be smaller. Deck storage designed for convenient access to actual things you need to store there. A specific place for ropes, bicycles, fenders, spare anchors, etc., etc., etc.

Yes, lots of deck storage is a priority. Our current boat has heaps, but it still manages to get filled up. For a cruising boat I think it is sensible to build a slightly larger boat than needed but to leave the ends bare. Without an internal fit out, the extra costs associated with more hull length are not great and you gain speed, comfort more fuel and water capacity as well as a heap of extra storage space. The higher marina costs are not a factor, because we are nearly always at anchor. The increased size of the rig and sails is the biggest drawback, but at 49 feet these are still reasonably easily managed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

7. Think about SA/D. I’ve reduced mine, with my blade jib, from 16.5 to something close to 14, and this is a miraculous transformation for these latitudes. The difference is somewhat misleading because part of the difference is new carbon sail vs old dacron one, but still – Wind range is extended to about 30 knots without reefing, and the lower range is not greatly affected except downwind (and the standard yankee is not a downwind sail, either). Heel and rigging forces dramatically reduced. Instead of an overlapping yankee or genoa, I would rather make the blade the regular working headsail (for these latitudes) and have a Code 0 – tacked to a bowsprit – for lighter conditions. I am starting to think that I wasted my money (and a lot of it) on my new yankee.

I calculated the numbers a while ago on the standard displacement. Our boat will be a little heavier due to a slightly greater skin thickness (increased 2mm for most of the hull with a 4mm increase at the bow and 1mm on the deck and superstructure) and beefier rudder etc, but the numbers are still good. The hull is not very beamy and is reasonably easily driven. I think strictly speaking SA/D is calculated based on your 100% fore triangle, so it is a boat rig property, not a sail property and does not change with larger or smaller headsails, but I may have this wrong. The numbers look good to me for the intended use of the boat, especially as a cutter effectively gets a boost in the SA/D which is not reflected in the numbers. Using 100% fore triangle the results are:

More answers to come

.

We have Furlex 400 furlers on both stays and they are bulletproof. Good choice. Electric furlers eliminate lines back, and I would definitely do them if I were putting in an electric furling in-mast main, but maybe not needed without that. For sure any future in-mast furling main I have will be electric, because the endless line and drum system of the non-electric ones creates risks of losing control of the sail, and doesn't work well if the sail is under a lot of pressure.

The idea of a longer boat with empty ends is eminently sound -- and incidentally, is a Dashew thing -- the Sundeers are basically 50 foot or even 45 foot boats in a 65 foot package. The longer, lightergy67 boat with longer waterline and especially if the beam is narrowish is also a recipe for greatly increased passage speed. That's all good except berthing rates, which we can easily sacrifice for all that other good stuff.

Concerning winches: electric ones are really useful and are even a safety feature. Handling big sails in strong weather with manual winches can use up strength you need for other things. I absolutely wouldn't be without electric winches on a boat this size. We have 10 winches: two manual non-ST 40's at the mast for halyard, two electric ST64 primaries, two manual ST44 secondaries, to manual single speed 16's for the mainsheet traveller, an electric 46 for mainsheet, staysail sheet and vang, an electric 44 for topping lift, outhaul, mainsail furling.

Furling headsails of this size needs electric winches, so we use the primaries for this when possible. If on the wrong tack, such that there is a sheet on the primary, I take a turn around a secondary and lead the furling line to one of the coachroof electrics. Can be done manually with one of the secondaries, but it's utterly exhausting.

The secondaries get a lot of competition. They are for: running backstays, sheet lead controls, and barber haulers, and now twings. I haven't used my pole yet, but the guys will add to competition for winch space. I can't really imagine getting by with fewer winches, and I wouldn't mind a couple more.

Well though out leads and clutches will help with these issues.

Concerning SA/D -- I thought that this was calculated from the real sail area, not foretriangle area. I guess I've been doing it wrong

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**Dockhead** · 08-06-2015, 04:08

Oh, and concerning sound systems -- I'm a former pro musician and sound is really important to me, although I don't listen to music much underway. But my sound system is KISS -- an Alpine non-CD head unit (IPod only) and car speakers. Period. All my music is on an IPod (you can also play MP3's from USB thumb drives). The Alpine unit has fairly high powered internal amps, and the car speakers, original to the build, are fairly decent ones, and it sounds fine. I've never felt the need to install external amps, subwoofers, etc. Partly because the boat's salon has very, very good acoustics and needs far less power for good sound than the inside of a house needs.

For listening to the radio, I use the television. It receives digital radio via the masthead Glomex powered antenna, which is fabulous. I even get All Things Considered in Scandinavia, BBC World Service, and lots of other good stuff, far superior to FM analogue radio. For radio, you can also stream it on your computer. Hook up the computer sound card output to the car head unit AUX input. Then lastly there is shortwave via the SSB.

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**weavis** · 08-06-2015, 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Oh, and concerning sound systems -- I'm a former pro musician and sound is really important to me, although I don't listen to music much underway. But my sound system is KISS -- an Alpine non-CD head unit (IPod only) and car speakers. Period. All my music is on an IPod (you can also play MP3's from USB thumb drives). The Alpine unit has fairly high powered internal amps, and the car speakers, original to the build, are fairly decent ones, and it sounds fine. I've never felt the need to install external amps, subwoofers, etc. Partly because the boat's salon has very, very good acoustics and needs far less power for good sound than the inside of a house needs.

For listening to the radio, I use the television. It receives digital radio via the masthead Glomex powered antenna, which is fabulous. I even get All Things Considered in Scandinavia, BBC World Service, and lots of other good stuff, far superior to FM analogue radio. For radio, you can also stream it on your computer. Hook up the computer sound card output to the car head unit AUX input. Then lastly there is shortwave via the SSB.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

My Radio and mp3 and video are all powered from the computer. I use a Sony self powered speaker system.

**carstenb** · 08-06-2015, 04:23

Noelex - lots of great suggestions and I can't add anytihing to what has been said.

Having said that - I'll now come with a suggestion, which you probably ahve thought about , but here goes.

Were it my boat I would have a workshop built in . With standing headrooma nd a narrow filebench(with a good vise) underneath tool boxes, bolts, nuts, shackles etc.

Evans had one on Hawk - I belive he called it the "bat cave".

I'd also ensure it ahd a large hatch above so it would be easy to get things up and down.
Finally I'd mount a multitude of electrical sockets - both 12V and 220V

**noelex 77** · 08-06-2015, 04:30

Continued:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

8. I would not want two headsails on parallel forestays like Discovery do. All that weight aloft and windage. With a decent sail locker forward I don’t think it’s all that hard to get the Code 0 up and down.

It will be rigged as a true cutter, a sail plan that we have found works well on our current boat. Still debating the downwind sail options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

9. I would however want poles for the blade as well as the Code 0. Although these sails work without a pole, there’s nothing like getting the clew out there when sailing downwind.

The foresails will be Yankee staysail and possibly gennaker/code zero. Trying to keep the number of poles down. One aluminium whisker pole will be fitted on a mast track for the Yankee, with the option of a carbon pole later for the gennaker if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

10. I don’t know if your present boat is cutter rigged or not, but a heavy dacron staysail on a heavy furler is pure gold on a cruising boat. Pure gold with so many uses. If you have a permanently rigged barber hauler to correct clew position on a reach, the elliptical self-tacking tracks are ok. Sailing at night in stiff weather short handed – there’s nothing quite like being able to bring the whole rig down to a compact, completely self tacking system like staysail plus reefed main – zero workload for the watchkeeper and no sudden squall can create any problem. Also gold when you need a storm jib – which is that time when you really DON’T want to be on the foredeck faffing with getting one rigged up. Also gives you one more sail plan option – will work with the full main if that’s the amount of sail you need up (as I recently discovered).

Yes agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

11. If I were ordering a custom boat, I would spend a good bit of time trying to figure out tender storage and solar panel mounting – two essentially insoluable problems on a boat less than 60’ or so, but I would try.

There will be a rear arch for solar/wind and davits. Plus foredeck storage for the tender for those really rough passages. Our current boat has tender storage on the rear deck and this is one system we will very much miss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

12. We’ve talked about fuel management in another thread. Proper sump with a drain in the main tank; day tank with sight tube. Polishing if you’re into that. Fuel fill well above deck level and out of the way of green water, maybe double sealed. Tank vent out of the way of green water.

All very sensible. There will be a day tank as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

13. Walk in engine room with workbench and perfect access to all machinery. Don’t know if that’s possible on a 47 footer, but if I ever change boats, this will be a non negotiable requirement. Should have fabulous ventilation, and – NB! – should be sealed with no air communication with the main hull volume.

Our current boat has a workshop and it is essential for a tinkerer like me. The new boat will have a technical area/ engine room sealed with a waterproof door plus a work area in the rear. The space is a bit tight, so is is more a sit up technical area and engine room but I think it will work well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

14. Enough engine power to punch through wind against tide and get out of a nasty channel. I discovered this in Borkum Riff. Or to motor upwind if you need to for some reason (there are good reasons).

It will be a 75hp Yanmar.

**weavis** · 08-06-2015, 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

Noelex - lots of great suggestions and I can't add anytihing to what has been said.

Having said that - I'll now come with a suggestion, which you probably ahve thought about , but here goes.

Were it my boat I would have a workshop built in . With standing headrooma nd a narrow filebench(with a good vise) underneath tool boxes, bolts, nuts, shackles etc.

Evans had one on Hawk - I belive he called it the "bat cave".

I'd also ensure it ahd a large hatch above so it would be easy to get things up and down.
Finally I'd mount a multitude of electrical sockets - both 12V and 220V

The hatch thing. Luxury!

**Seaworthy Lass** · 08-06-2015, 05:14

Many thanks to everyone for all the good ideas presented. They have given us lots to think about. We are in the very early stages of planning, but some preliminary specifications have been presented to K&M. The drafting of the initial design has not yet commenced, but will occur shortly, so now is the ideal time for specs to be added to or modified.

We are teaming up to answer all the suggestions. Noelex is drafting a long reply to Dockhead's first post, so in the meantime I will address the second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Since we're talking about deck gear and deck configuration, I would add some other things to my list:
1. Very sturdy cleats, at least 8 of them, with fairleads for docklines through the low bulwarks.
3. Massive sampson post

Eight double sampson posts welded to both the deck and toe rail have been specified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

2. Horizontal windlass (like a Lighthouse), not a fru-fru vertical one like our boats have. With a warping drum.

Yes, protecting the anchor winch motor from spray/slash water is important and this is done poorly in most boats with a vertical windlass. On our current boat we incorporated a baffle that isolates the motor area and the same will be done again. An oversized anchor winch is a great safety feature. We are probably going for a 24V Maxwell 4000.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

4. Sturdy hard points along the rail for rigging barber haulers, guys, preventers, etc. Guess on an alu boat this is much less of a problem than for our plastic ones.

Following your recent threads, we are thinking of adopting a similar system to your new one. The outer attachment points are simple. The toe rail will be solid rod aluminium welded to the hull with numerous openings allowing attachment of blocks. The inner points will either be individual loops welded onto the deck, or possibly an aluminium track with holes in it welded on, instead of a conventional track screwed down. This has the added advantage of getting rid of the stainless steel screws that would normally secure the track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5. Provision for deploying an anchor off the stern. Maybe not going as far as having a separate windlass back there as some Baltic boats have, but at least, a decent way to lead the rode fair to a winch, store the Fortress on the rail, etc.

Still thinking about the stern anchoring options. There will at least be a bow roller on the stern and provision for using one of the sheet winches, with convenient anchor storage nearby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

x. Jumper stays on the mast so you don't have to use the running backs for inner forestay tension except in hard weather.

Wouldn't they get in the way of the yankee on a cutter rig?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

xx. Sole plates locked down some way other than by screws. Maybe some kind of latches, to give easy access under them yet keeping them secure.

I think K&M's usual system for most of the flooring is via an allan headed recessed latching mechanism, but I will check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

xxx. Easy, instant access to all through hulls, sea cocks, bilge pumps, etc.

All underwater through hulls will have aluminium above waterline standpipes welded on with seacocks, or in the case of depth transducers, a coffer dam (rudder will have this as well). The bilges are normally bone dry in an aluminium boat (except maybe in the engine bay), but easy access to bilge pumps is always very sensible.

SWL

Example of blocks attached to the toe rail on a Bestevaer. We took a zillion and one photos when we visited K&M

:

monte · 08-06-2015, 06:26

Are you having a generator? I didn't see one mentioned. Are you going to fit a watt load of solar on a Bimini? It looks like it would work. Batteries, going lipo? Just curious as energy design is such a big part of cruising and not having to run engines or generators is nice but not a must have if there's a generator to back things up I guess (we don't heave one though)
One feature of Jimmy Cornells new yacht he was pretty proud of, which I liked as well, was a universal bracket welded to the transom. Basically just 2 pieces of angle aluminium I think. He said it could be used to attach a wind vane, wind gen, hydro gen, or auxiliary outboard. The component just needs a female fitting to slide into the fixed male fitting. Other uses could be outboard lift crane, dive steps, anything really. It seemed like a good idea for keeping the transom clean and having a few options.
I notice a few holes in the gunnel on katharos for attachment points. I'd probably add a few more for redundancy, say spaced every meter or .5m
Another vote for an electric winch! We have one that we can run all lines to. Some may need to run around another winch but the option is there to use it.
WM - we're really happy with our simple to operate (on/off/flush switch) aqua base 65l/hr 23A. Very efficient, similar to a spectra but spectra can be pricey in Europe.
Lots of options and lots of fun selecting stuff! I'm sure you will both have a good idea of what you want and need anyway. Will you be sailing up to be near the build or travel back and forth?

**weavis** · 08-06-2015, 06:37

I cant see the benefit in not having a generator.

Even on the smaller boats that I use, I have a portable. So VERY useful when needed. Mine is 2K so will handle individually the biggest load I have, or a number of smaller items on the boat 230v system.. I think I get 4-5 hours on a single petrol fill. It will power all the running electronics in the event of a failure of batteries or low batteries.

ITs there. You dont have to use it much, but I would run mine every 4-weeks for an hour to check it and charge off everything or run the hot water tank and flush through. If I was living aboard full time, it would be something I would require.

**estarzinger** · 08-06-2015, 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The inner points will either be individual loops welded onto the deck, or possibly an aluminium track with holes in it welded on, instead of a conventional track screwed down. This has the added advantage of getting rid of the stainless steel screws that would normally secure the track.

you guys seem on top of things but I will offer four small comments.

1. regarding attaching stuff to deck - direct welding on is of course nice/preferred. But you can also weld on 8 or 10m plate with pre-tapped holes with stainless threaded inserts in the holes and if the stainless inserts are set completely sealed in locktite or similar, it is near perfect - strong, there is zero corrosion, and you can always remove the bolts. We did that with our winch and genoa track bases.

2. pay a lot of careful attention to condensation inside the boat. you want zero metal exposed. No screw or bolt heads that go into the aluminum frames, and no port or hatch frames exposed to the moist warm interior air.

3. exterior paint will probably be the single highest maintenance job on the boat long term. try really hard to minimize it absolutely as much as possible. I know it looks nice, but even small amounts are a bitch to keep right.

4. we had zero hull corrosion on hawk when we sold her after 18 years (the survey ultrasounded her whole hull on 50cm centers and inspected for paint blisters and white dust piles and found none). Our main hull zincs lost essentially zero weight over time (we replaced them once at the 10 year mark just "because"). I attribute all that to having a perfectly floating/isolated hull which I carefully checked every three months and fixed any even small leaks to the hull (often dirt/salt could cause a small path from a connection to the hull). This was easier to do because we had so little AC and such a simple electrical system (it was essentially all contained in the engine room except the nav switch panel and lights).

**noelex 77** · 08-06-2015, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

15. No hull penetrations in the main hull volume like in Dashew’s boats. Watertight doors. Cassions around rudder tubes and bow thrusters.

The through hulls will all be on aluminium standpipes with seacocks and hoses above the waterline. There will be a coffer dam around the rudder and hull transducers.

The boat will be divided into 4.5 waterproof areas (4 totally waterproof and one to just above the waterline). The main cabin area will be fitted with a watertight door, which will form one of these areas. In addition, combined with removable bars on the hatches, this provides a secure area that is difficult to break into. This gives a bit of personal safety when cruising more troublesome areas. The main hatch system will also be considerably more secure than on conventional boats, allowing better personal and theft protection. These risks can never be entirely removed, but it is not difficult to make a boat a lot more secure than most current models, with the hope that the bad guys would be deterred enough to move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

16. For God’s sake, good cockpit drains like my boat DOESN’T have.

They will be big

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

17. My boat has heavy Lexan transparent scuttle and counterweighted washboard. Why every boat doesn’t have this, I have no idea – it’s the tits. Easily doubles the amount of natural light in the salon.

A transparent retracting washboard has been specified, along with a secondary screen of aluminium security bars coupled with a fly screen. These disappear down into their own recess so no washboard storage is needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

18. For cold climates, waste heat recovery from main and genset to be used in the central heating system. If you can find a place for a solid fuel stove on a bulkhead somewhere – maybe in the pilot house? – this is just lovely and cozy. For a central heating furnace, you will have the hard choice to go with a non user serviceable type like Webasto or Eber, or a less efficient and much harder to install non-blown type.

The boat will have a diesel Reflex heater in the salon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

19. Small but heavy duty genset like the 4.5kW Northern Lights. A heavy duty genset utterly transforms electrical life on board because you don’t mind running it when you need to, unlike a high speed intermittent duty genset.

I think it needs to be decided at the outset if the boat will be generator dependent or not. We currently have a DC generator, but with our installed solar system it is almost never used, other than to keep it in good condition. We are hoping for a significant increase in solar capacity for this new boat, so running entirely on solar should be easy.

Solar is so easy and reliable. It is about the only boat system that keeps working for 20+ years and requires zero maintenance or running costs. I think it much better than a generator based system. With careful planning all the electrical systems we want should run on solar alone. That is essentially what we do at the moment, but the extra solar power should give us more power for devices like a washing machine and more water via the watermaker to give the boat a freshwater rinse etc. We are not planning to install a generator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

20. Dual alternators on the main engine and completely separate starting and house systems. The house alternator should be heavy duty hot rated continuous duty rated school bus type – worth its weight in gold.

Yes

. Although we run our current engine so little it only plays a tiny role in our electricity production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

21. Electrical cooking (see above); no propane. Induction cooker and convection oven, microwave/convection combination built-in.

Requires a generator

, so propane only. We currently have storage for 40 kg of propane and would like to keep or even increase this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

22. You will have to decide whether you are going over to LiFePo batts or not. If so, find a really good engineer to design the system.

Probably not, it is still something I am debating. Current thinking is a 24V gel lead acid system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

23. At the expense of complexity, cost, and weight, there are still a few things which should be redundant:
a. Autopilot. Dual rams and pumps. Let the backup pilot be non-networked.
b. Central heating furnace (if you go with a non-user serviceable type).
c. Inverter/charger. Your whole electrical system goes down if this unit goes down, and they are not reliable. They can be ganged, though, so that is the answer – two of them.
d. Rudders? Twin rudders have a big downside in that you don’t get any prop wash on them. But rudder loss (as we’ve seen from discussions on here) is the common terror of all long-distance sailors. If not twins, I would want a spade rudder with absolutely massive construction, like Dashew’s, good bit shorter than the keel (despite performance loss), not too high aspect (ditto), sacrificial bit on the bottom.
e. Wind instrument, heading sensor, depth sounder, and other critical network sensors. I would lead two separate N2K backbones up the mast.

Agreed. Redundancy in vital systems is important:
- We are planning two independent autohelm systems.

- Heating is not considered vital (we have none now), so simply one diesel Reflex heater is being installed.

- We currently use our inverter rarely. Most of our systems run directly off 12V. As well as the main inverter, we have a couple of small portable units that will run most things anyway. Seriously thinking of installing no shore power system. This needs to be very well specified on an aluminium boat with an isolation transformer. The last time we plugged into shore power was well over a year ago on the hardstand, and the time before was two years prior to that. With the greater solar capacity even this should be unnecessary. Shore power can be easily added if required later.

- Rudder will be a spade and as you suggest, "massive". We are still awaiting designer feedback on this. Provision of an emergency rudder and means of attachment has also been specified.

- Depth and GPS are the only things I consider vital that needs to be planned for. We will have two depth systems, as we currently do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

24. Lots of space for electronics with perfect access. I guess switch panels on hinges with lots of volume behind. In general all the electrical and electronic systems should be designed for very well organized, easily accessible cable runs, in large conduits.

An essential requirement. Almost all instrument displays will back directly into the technical space that is continuous with the engine bay, so there is easy access to wiring and replacement. Lots of space will be left for additional installations at a later date.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

25. Consider separate power supply for critical electronics, a la GMDSS requirement for radios. This is not that hard or expensive – just one extra battery.

This will be done. I have currently wired in a small battery on our boat. I will do the same again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

26. Life raft and grab bag storage. My boat has a life raft locker in the after deck, with a lid. Much better than having it on the cabin top or in the pushpit where it causes windage, gets in the way, etc.

There will be life raft storage, possibly under one of the long cockpit seats. Probably just a small 4 man liferaft, as the 4 watertight areas and aluminium construction means sinking is very unlikely. Fire remains the only risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

27. A little, but wonderful thing: Extract ventilation from the galley. My boat has this and it is splendid. Cleverly designed – there are a couple of blowers with ducts through the transom for ventilating the engine room, and the designer just added a third one, which he made galley extract. It makes a huge difference in air quality below, especially in cold weather when the boat is closed up, but in hot weather, too. Electric cooking will also greatly help with this – eliminating the massive amounts of water vapor and other combustion products released by burning propane.

We will give it some thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

28. Sink drains should go right overboard, not through a gray water tank, at least the galley sink. Galley sink draining into a gray water tank is a recipe for the hideous stinking mess which I have to clean out all too frequently on my boat – ick! – despite very hard efforts to keep organic matter out of the drain. Alternatively, maybe there could be some kind of macerator, and the gray water tank is drained from the bottom through a sump, rather than through a pickup tube like mine. Maybe a macerator (“garbage disposal”) would help.

All good points. We have specified sink drains will go directly overboard (as they do on our current boat), as well as being able to be diverted to the grey water tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

29. Make sure there’s enough slope in all the drain lines, gray and especially black water, and that they all drain when the boat is heeled.

Will double check this when we look at plans. Location of all tanks has not been finalised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

30. Storage. A place for everything, and everything in its place. Normal boats are not designed for long-term, long-distance cruising, especially in this regard. Tools, parts, supplies, spares – should be rational space for everything, and not by pulling floorboards up and cushions out like on my boat.

Yes, agreed. Very important point.

barnakiel · 08-06-2015, 07:11

Yesterday I watched one of them returning to the marina.

The swept back spreaders setup looks Bavarish. The hull looks nice: stubby and sexy.

Some time back I watched another with in line spreaders and she looked better. That one had some issues with systems though.

Seems no way to avoid first year blues.

b.

**Seaworthy Lass** · 08-06-2015, 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

One mod to consider would be having an external rudder that slides into a cassette. That way you could carry spare rudders.

Rudders are so vulnerable to damage and such a common reason for yacht sinking, that we think it is important that an emergency rudder and mounting system is provided

. The method of attachment is yet to be decided. We are waiting for some suggestions from K&M/Dykstra Naval Architects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

I feel like I'm flyiing in some pretty rarified air here, but, FWIW, I suggest specifying also, larger conduit than they intend to use, for the addition of "afterthooughts" a few years down the line, and a couple of empty circuit breakers, too.

Ann

Both really good ideas, Ann.

Numerous extra conduit will be fitted, with string pulled through. When our last home was built, conduit was stuck into the walls all over the place

. This is even more essential on a boat.

Rather than a couple of circuit breaks, space for heaps more will be allowed for (they will easily clip in). We are not have conventional circuit breakers, but industrial heavy duty doubled poled ones, that will have a door covering up the panel, as it is not very attractive. This cupboard will back directly into the technical area, allowing easy wiring of additional items later.

This is an example of a panel on one of the Bestevaers:

poiu · 08-06-2015, 07:41

Congratulations on the not so soon to be born baby.

This thread has enough substance to support a whole forum in itself! A lot of good ideas already, so I have been beaten to it.

I understand the KISS principle and I sympathise with it as I have spent far too many hours maintaining and fixing stuff than I would like, but I also like my comforts. I'd probably go a bit more towards comfort than you may like, so I apologise if these suggestions may not properly take account of what you want, they have my bias.

I love the basics. Alu light sealed non-leaking structure, standpipes. waterproof bulkheads, raised saloon and protected all weather helm, big mechanical space and storage.

Heating/cooling
Both are a necessity in many parts of the world, not a luxury. Unless you are going into places where water temperatures are below 5deg C a reverse cycle air con system is very effective and efficient, no less efficient than a drip heater. I would insulate the boat very well, ideally control all the ventilation mechanically as once you have got insulation under control most heat/cooling is lost in ventilation. With good insulation and controlled ventilation the heating/cooling requirements of a boat will be tiny and much, much smaller than is usually provided in boats. With your tiny sized air con/heating system it will be possible to run it off batteries through an inverter and to run it 24/7. This will mean you will need a small generator, find it affordable to run heating/cooling and you will enjoy it because it doesn't cost much and improves comfort particularly valuable when it is hot and heats/cools every cabin. My air con has involved only about a day of maintenance in 5 years replacing a failed pump. The genset - no problems at all (Onan). Not the worst area of the boat for failures, so I think an area for KISS to be compromised.

Hifi
I have an a/c Linn amp and quality overhead speakers in each area. Cockpit, saloon, owner's and guest cabin all fed from MP3s on the PC. Great sound and not optional equipment in my view.

Batteries
LiFePo4. Big thumbs up for these. Mine have been great. Not many dissenters out there.

Genset/power
lots of advantages. It means you can ditch the noisy ugly wind turbine, gives tons of quick charging power and you probably need it for full heating/air con and all the other luxuries. I realise it will take a lot to sell the genset to you.

To keep the genset near to fully loaded in use and therfore efficient, you will need to remove all peak loads from it, so I would run all a/c pumps through inverters or soft starters or make them DC and run them off the battery/inverter. This might also mean a DC slow output watermaker like the katadyn. This also has the result that you need a smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient and cheaper to buy generator. I suspect the smallest 3 cylinder kubota based unit you can find will work fine if you design the boat along these lines.

I'd go for the Victron or Mastervolt charger/inverters. Victron also do a super light, seemingly switch mode isolation transformer. I don't know how that works. I wonder if it is suitable?

Radar mast
I note it is on the port side in the picture, shouldn't it be on the starboard side? I think it would be tidier up the mast though. I'd think about making room for the new Simrad Halo open array type. Looks like a game changer.

Chain claw
Seems missing. I would fit one. What, he is advising the anchoring guru of something to do with anchoring. What impertinence.

Water tank/water maker
I'd go for smaller tanks than you suggest. It seems to be the trend on new builds as if you have a watermaker you don't need a big tank. I'd have moderate tanks though as you may be sitting out in a stinky harbour for a week where you can't run the watermaker. I'd make the extra tank a fuel tank instead and carry a decent hand held emergency r/o unit in case it fails on a big crossing.

Dinghy
Probably not a helpful suggestion for you as it may change the boat too much to be viable: it seems to me that a dinghy on davits or even on deck is hideous, blocks the view and in extremis is not especially safe. A boat with a dingy on davits or on deck is essentially a bigger boat, so why not build it bigger anyway. It would give extra waterline and storage. If designed to combine with a lost lazarette and sugar scoop bathing platform it would actually require only a little extra length anyway.

Winches/furlers
I'd go for the new reversible electric type. So much safer to power out. Electric is a lot less effort of course. My electric winches have been pretty reliable and I think they are in general, so going electric is another area for the KISS principle to be compromised. You will be an old crock before you sell this boat and so you are building for your dotage probably. I'd go for powered furlers too unless you can make your winches work double easily. If furlers are electric rather than hydraulic saves having an hydraulic power pack and deck clutter with lines.

Bimini
I'd make it fixed and insulated as sunbrella lets a lot of heat through and cover it in flexible lightweight solar panels with a couple of windows to see the sails. Also panels on the deckhouse. I'd put tracks down the side to put side covers down to give a totally dry cockpit for wet passages or for when it is really rainy. In the tropics nearly every boat has a bimini and keep them up all the time, so why not make it permanent to start with. I'd make it hurricane proof. Having solar panels here should mean you don't need an arch.

Sea-chest.
I.e. minimum through hulls. Just seems sensible.

Aluminium
You obviously like it as you are going for a second one. Aluminium has high emissivity - don't you feel the heat inside on a hot sunny day?

Swing keel/rudders
Having been shut out of quite a few shallow spots this is something that appeals to me. It would occasionaly be great to get right up to the shore. Twin spade rudders for redundancy and efficiency appeals too.

Sealable dorades
I have lost a few bits of kit due to seawater ingress. Worth fitting seals, but I can't see any dorades on the pictures. How do you get fresh air in at sea? I can understand removing dorades as they will block the view, but you still need to get air inside.

Dashew's ideas.
Mostly are good. There is the book as Jedi mentions. A ton on his website too. I'd copy a lot. A few above are promoted by him, but there are many others like putting the fridge keel cooler in a fresh water tank chamber. DC air con water pumps for each compressor. External shading for all windows. Oil change equipment etc, etc.

Fridge
To help with the KISS process: I recently installed a frigoboat fridge evaporator with is a freezer chamber with a lid. With it I have a fridge and a small freezer combined. Works really well for ice, ice cream and the odd fish filleted and I don't bother turning on the freezer now.

Propane.
This is against your KISS principle. I'd vote electric, but you do need to concede on the genset first. Anyway, with the space and weight with the tanks you can house a genset, improve safety and reliability on board and reduce hassle in not hunting down or decanting propane.

There you go, my 2 pence worth.

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