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Old 09-06-2015, 16:18   #106
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Re: Bestevaer 49

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I am firmly in the gas cooker camp.
However, the last year in Spain I have been using electric induction cooking.

Here is why. Fire hazard eliminated.

How does it work for baking??
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Old 09-06-2015, 16:31   #107
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Re: Bestevaer 49

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How does it work for baking??
Strangely enough-I use a large pot and bake sponges and cakes in it.

It will pan roast using other cookware.

I havent tried it on board yet, just in the apartment. Nice piece of kit. A single element hob cost me 20EU and a double was 35EU
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Old 09-06-2015, 16:59   #108
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Some of the Dashew boats have used 5 bar alu tread as a non skid option. Any thoughts on this apart from the heat issue?

It's good non-skid, low maintenance, and inexpensive. but its hot, hard on bare feet, and the weld lines are not attractive (you can't grind them the same way you do the topsides) - while I could live with it on the foredeck I would not want it in the cockpit/transom/cockpit seats.



The major three bulkheads will be watertight, therefore aluminium welded 360°. While heavier than cored panels, they do contribute to rigidity and strength.

Our bulkheads were watertight also. But using lightish gauge (4mm I think) aluminum with L frames (every 60 cm) with 12mm cored pannels either side - a light and strong and sound reducing combination. By the way . . . you can get these cored panels with very very nice wood skins.

You have to cover the bulkheads with something. Just painted aluminum will sweat. So it might as well be as stiff and light and insulative as possible - eg cored panel.


Floors will be 8mm solid timber laminated to ply.

That's the area I would most urge you to rethink. In cold water you want a core panel floor because the cold comes up thru the hull and a ply floor will not stop it. You will have frozen feet and ankles. Remember heat rises. So even if you have good heat and your chest is hot, your feet will be cold. I personally would desire 50mm cored panels there. In addition you can save a lot of weight. I know it is down low, but weight is weight. The individual panels are also lighter, so easier to handle when you want to get in the bilge.
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Old 09-06-2015, 17:00   #109
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Washing machine. The old Pearson 424's had a separate shower with a seat, under the seat was a tub that drained into the shower sump.

You put your washing in and went sailing, instant washing machine.

I had also considered putting a small impeller in the floor, like in the old Hoover twin tubs with a DC motor so the washer would also work at anchor or in a marina.

Removable davits, Bob Perry did a nice job with Carbon ones on Jakatan, just google the boat, lots of good ideas there.

I am making removable ones because I also want to use a wind vane at sea, so cruising inshore, no need for vane, use davits. Offshore, stow the dinghy, drop the davits and use the vane.
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Old 09-06-2015, 18:59   #110
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Re: Bestevaer 49

I completely understand that you don't want to be dependent on the generator; I would not and I am not. The trick is to have backups for all primary systems. We consider the watermaker and stove primary systems and the backup is a combination of the inverter/charger and main engine mounted alternators. I can run the main engine and the alternators feed the inverter which then powers the watermaker or stove. I have a 3,000W inverter/charger.


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Several members have now raised the subject of induction cooking, so it's time to address this.

I agree propane has problems. All the ones you have listed plus the headache of sourcing it and transporting it to and from the boat. I also agree induction cooking is excellent and eliminates almost all the problems with propane. However, and this is a BIG however, you need a generator or a big battery capacity with a huge solar array (possible on largish cats), or you need to be connected to shore power. The latter two don't apply to us.

We simply don't want to be dependent on a generator. We are not convinced that they are sufficiently reliable for offshore cruising, especially in remote places. Generator failures occur commonly and this effectively disables the boat. Urgent repair is then required.

I hope we will occasionally have enough power from solar/wind to use an induction hotplate. This will provide some redundancy for the vital function of cooking (as will the top of the Reflex heater when it is running).

We will try and overcome some of the problems associated with propane by having room for several large tanks, eliminating the need for frequently sourcing it. Over the years, as a keen cook I have explored techniques for cooking with little gas and think I now have this down pat, so the added moisture produced is not a big deal.

I am yet to be even vaguely convinced that relying on a generator is a good thing. This issue is probably on par with cat vs mono debates though .

SWL
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:13   #111
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Re: Bestevaer 49

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I completely understand that you don't want to be dependent on the generator; I would not and I am not. The trick is to have backups for all primary systems. We consider the watermaker and stove primary systems and the backup is a combination of the inverter/charger and main engine mounted alternators. I can run the main engine and the alternators feed the inverter which then powers the watermaker or stove. I have a 3,000W inverter/charger.
Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at -- Nick said it better.

It's a question of systems design/systems architecture. Once you have some critical item of gear which needs a certain kind of power -- say a watermaker, needing 230v, then it is efficient to have as many other critical systems as possible using that rather than some dead-end power source like gas. Then you can concentrate resources on making that power source as robust as possible.

On my boat, like on Nick's, I have multiple sources of 230v power. It's produced directly by the genset, or it can be produced from various sources of DC power, using the inverter. My genset was down for a few weeks due to a self-inflicted heat exchanger problem, and it was no problem. I just ran the 230v gear from the inverter and used the school bus alternator (about 2.5 kW) on the main engine as necessary. I also have a Honda suitcase generator as additional backup; never used in the last 3 years.

The charger/inverter is the key device in the system because it converts power back and forth between AC and DC, and it also supplements AC sources with inverted power when your AC source (say a weak shore supply, or an efficiently small generator) can't supply peak demand. The problem is that these are complex and not entirely reliable devices, and they are a bottleneck and point of vulnerability in an otherwise robust and highly redundant system. That's why I recommend having two or three of them, and ganging them. Also, the supposedly 3000 watt one (I think Nick and I have the same one; Victron Multiplus, right Nick?) is not 3000 watts at all, but 2500 in the best case, and 2000 in hot weather. A couple of them is a good idea.

SWL and Noelex have decided not to have a lot of 230v power so maybe this isn't relevant to them, but I guess this thread will be interesting for a lot of people making similar decisions, so maybe good to have this in the record.

230v power works so well on my boat that my inverter is always on, even on long passages under sail. I bought a computer monitor for my main nav PC which is capable of running on 12v, and bought a small inverter for running certain 230v gear so that I could turn the main inverter off, but do you know what? I have never bothered to hook any of it up. I don't cook with electricity, but I boil water with it (electric kettle), microwave stuff, sometimes use an electric Nespresso machine, and besides that, people on board are constantly charging phones, tablets, laptops, etc. and there are never enough 12v chargers for everything. So I just leave the inverter on 24/7. It's so easy to produce electrical power on my boat, and it is stored and handled so efficiently, that it's just not any problem. As a matter of systems design -- the more things you run off electricity, the more you pool these uses and pool the sources of power to run them, the better the whole system works. My father's boat, until he installed a bunch of solar, was totally different -- he didn't use AC power much, but had a few important DC devices (like instruments!). Since he didn't have much power demand, he had not devoted much resources to producing power. He had a smallish battery bank. And guess what -- electrical power was a problem. He worried about it, conserved it, wasted time and thought on it, which I don't on my boat at all.

My AC power system is so robust, that it's even my choice for running the emergency dewatering pump. A petrol engine would make it impossible to store the dewatering pump in the main hull volume, and you have the risk that the carb will get gummed up if you don't run it regularly, so that was excluded. DC power was excluded because there are fewer redundant sources of DC power on board, than AC. If I have water in the boat over the floorboards (God forbid), I can disconnect the generator from the boat electrical system and run the dewatering pump from it directly. Or from the inverter. Or from the Honda suitcase generator. Or . . .

Something to think about.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:38   #112
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Dockhead, just hijacking a Besteaever 49 ST thread a bit, old man?

Tsk.

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Old 10-06-2015, 02:51   #113
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Dockhead, just hijacking a Besteaever 49 ST thread a bit, old man?

Tsk.

Ann
Well, it's not exactly a "Besteaever 49 ST thread", but rather a thread on how to specify a new boat, and how to configure the systems. It will be read by others thinking about questions of system architecture, and not just the OPs.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:27   #114
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Well, it's not exactly a "Besteaever 49 ST thread", but rather a thread on how to specify a new boat, and how to configure the systems. It will be read by others thinking about questions of system architecture, and not just the OPs.
I agree the thread has a lot that one might generalze to having a new boat built for oneself. Yet it seems to me that the intent of the thread is to enhance noelex and SWL's thinking about their own project: The Bestevaer 49ST. Perhaps, I have a too narrow definition of it. Maybe we need to hear from them.

After all, we mainly want them to get the best possible boat that suits them out of their efforts.

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Old 10-06-2015, 03:41   #115
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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After all, we mainly want them to get the best possible boat that suits them out of their efforts.

Ann
Nonsense! They need the best possible boat that we design for them!!

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Old 10-06-2015, 04:22   #116
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Nonsense! They need the best possible boat that we design for them!!

Nonsense, Gary. Come back when you're sober.

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Old 10-06-2015, 04:30   #117
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Nonsense, Gary. Come back when you're sober.

A
I dont drink........... I spill most of it.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:04   #118
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I am bit behind answering everyone's specific questions and addressing suggestions, but I will do my best to catch up shortly.

Deciding if you should equip your boat with a permanently installed marine diesel generator is a very important question that should be given more exposure on CF. Many see a genenerator as a simple add on, but if you design the systems sensibly it alters much of the equipment onboard.

With a diesel generator there is little need to give energy efficiency a high priority. This effects everything from the autopilot to the type of laptop used. Cooking, hot water, watermaker and heating can, and generally should, then be all be based on 110/240v not 12v. Even boat insulation and ventilation are no longer a vital priority when air conditioning becomes viable. So incorporating a generator means the boat is planned fundamentally very differently.

I have cruised on boats with solar and generator systems and I am firmly in the solar camp. That does not mean this is the right decision, more just what suits our priorities. Hopefully with discussions like this, others planning a cruising boat can gain some insight into what might work best for them.

My view is that if you can live happily and comfortably with the power you can generate from solar, then it is not sensible to replace a power source that requires zero maintenance, lasts for 20+ years and is very close to 100% reliable, with a generator that is arguably one of the least reliable, highest maintenance items you can install.

Estimating how much power you need to live happily and comfortably is not easy. You really need to live the lifestyle and find out for yourself. If you can answer this question the right decision to design your boat running primarily off a generator or solar is obvious.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:13   #119
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I will say that our solution to this was to make most of the rudder so strong the whole boat would have to come apart for it to fail (and we tested this by hitting some rocks really hard a couple times). But also to have a 'crumple' zone on the bottom of the rudder, that would deform on a really really hard impact. That seems an easier design solution that carrying a spare rudder.

We in fact also tried the 'spare rudder' idea with our aux rudder windvane and while that rudder was quite large and difficult to stow, it was not really big enough to steer well in waves and the shaft broke twice. The aux rudder idea is very very hard to actually execute so that it both works and is not massively cumbersome. Lot's of people 'pretend' to have spare rudders but my suspicious is that most would not work at all well in real ocean conditions.
Thanks for the details of the rudder.
In view of your experience, ordering an emergency rudder will need a rethink. One obvious restriction we have already thought of is if the rudder jams at an angle and cannot be centred, the emergency rudder may be of little value.

I agree the first priority is a strong rudder that has a reasonable chance of surviving a collision with a whale, container, ice or rocks etc.

Most spade rudders in production boats are not very strong, but a spade rudder can be built to withstand reasonable impacts. Our current thinking for the new boat is to significantly beef up the (already tough) normal spade rudder with a thicker shaft and greater skin thickness. This will be teamed up with some stronger internal reinforcement so the hull attachment does not become the weak point (although the rudder area will be protected by a coffer dam and waterproof bulkhead anyway).

We are awaiting the designer's opinions. A skeg mounted rudder is an option, but often the skeg itself is the weak point and there are some other compromises.

Feedback on rudder shaft diameter is exactly what we need. 130mm on Hawk is just the sort of detail that is gold.

The possibility of sacrificial lower tip to the rudder is good concept (Dockhead also mentioned this). Any details how this was achieved would be great (a change from 10mm to ...? skin thickness). I understand Hawk's rudder was replaced with an improved model (what were the differences between the old and new designs?). This sort of real world experience from a boat (and crew) that has sailed so many miles in adverse conditions is invaluable.

Garcia design a sacrificial fibreglass TOP to the rudder on some models. The idea is to prevent the blade jamming against the hull if the shaft is bent. They also install a tiny skeg. Presumably with the aim of deflecting ropes/ice from jamming between the hull and blade. Thoughts? Is this just marketing to say they have a "Skeg" rudder, or does this have merit?

Rudder failure is a cause of problems. Improvements to structural integrity of the boat is the area where it worth spending the most money and effort.

Full time cruising is tough on boats. In boatyards frequented by long distance cruisers there are usually several owners that are trying to fix major structural problems. These are difficult to repair satisfactorily with unskilled labor. Small differences in construction techniques can have large consequences when a boat is subject to a lot of hard sailing.

I think it is important to try and minimise the risk of serious problems occurring.

Garcia's mini Skeg any value?
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:27   #120
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I don't see much downside to having an emergency rudder to fit the previously mentioned transom bracket. Even in flat plate aluminium with a bolt on tiller it's got to be a better option than trying to fashion a rudder from a plywood hatch cover and spinnaker pole, which has bought a lot of sailors back to port. Not perfect maybe, but nice to have. I think a small Skeg is a great idea, no downside and enough to keep things from getting stuck. We have had to head to wind at regular intervals to drop weed from our rudders, sometimes every 30 mins. There's a lot of weed in the Atlantic and Caribbean this year. It's surprising how much a bit of weed effects speed and trim. Just a small 50mm, 10mm plate triangle in front of the ruder stock would probably work wonders.
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