Bestevaer 49ST

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by monte

Are you going to fit a watt load of solar on a Bimini? It looks like it would work.

There will be an arch at the back for solar/ davits. This has yet to be designed and we need feedback from the designers as to what is feasible, but double our current solar output, which basically generates all our power at the moment should be easily possible.

Originally Posted by monte

Batteries, going lipo?

Lithium has a lot of appeal, but is a decision that can be left to later. European gel batteries are good with a very long life and they are still, just, the more likely choice.

Originally Posted by monte

Are you going to fit generator to back things up I guess

Our current (DC) generator would not get run at all if it was not for the requirment to run it periodically for the health of the diesel motor. So I am confident we can manage well without one especially with significantly more solar and in addition wind. I am into redundancy so a backup Honda has some appeal, but with no shore power, battery charger or AC system the total cost is very high for something that would be probably never be needed.

Originally Posted by monte

One feature of Jimmy Cornells new yacht he was pretty proud of, which I liked as well, was a universal bracket welded to the transom. Basically just 2 pieces of angle aluminium I think. He said it could be used to attach a wind vane, wind gen, hydro gen, or auxiliary outboard.

Thanks. I have seen Jimmy's boat and it was a feature I had forgotten about. We suffered complete engine failure in our boat about five years ago. Sailing for a couple of months without the engine was a real challenge. We subsequently replaced the main engine but I also made a transom bracket for the dingy outboard. In zero or low wind even a low powered outboard will move a large boat suprisingly well. As you point out, the same bracket can be used for a water generator etc.

This is a photo I took showing the female part of the bracket on Jimmy's Garcia Exploration 45. Lots of great ideas on this boat, but note, this is not a Bestevaer or K&M boat.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Rudders are so vulnerable to damage and such a common reason for yacht sinking, that we think it is important that an emergency rudder and mounting system is provided . The method of attachment is yet to be decided. We are waiting for some suggestions from K&M/Dykstra Naval Architects.

I will say that our solution to this was to make most of the rudder so strong the whole boat would have to come apart for it to fail (and we tested this by hitting some rocks really hard a couple times). But also to have a 'crumple' zone on the bottom of the rudder, that would deform on a really really hard impact. That seems an easier design solution that carrying a spare rudder.

We in fact also tried the 'spare rudder' idea with our aux rudder windvane and while that rudder was quite large and difficult to stow, it was not really big enough to steer well in waves and the shaft broke twice. The aux rudder idea is very very hard to actually execute so that it both works and is not massively cumbersome. Lot's of people 'pretend' to have spare rudders but my suspicious is that most would not work at all well in real ocean conditions.

[estarzinger]

just fyi . . . .our second rudder had a solid 130mm dia aluminum shaft (5083 h113), with 10mm skins, and 10mm internal frames (can't remember the exact spacing but pretty close, perhaps 30cm). Our lower bearing was a solid UHMW bushing that took several very strong rudder impacts with zero deformation and zero wear over 10 years (we measured it when we sold the boat) and nice low friction - I think a much better solution than roller bearings in the lower.

[Dockhead]

Guys, are you changing your cruising grounds? That boat looks distinctively high latitude.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[JPA Cate]

Hi, guys,

Another day, another few ideas:

All lines led aft, through rope clutches. So far, so good. Now let's make the coaming open into what I'd call a rope bin, lid notched for the lines to pass through, and voila! no more spaghetti in the cockpit.

You can make your duckboards collapsible like a drinking mug, and store them in the bridge deck. Flush lock.

For inside the anchor locker, you could have a flaking arm to stow the chain.

I see you are planning permanently rigged davits. A friend has removable davits for at anchor. They stow in tubes built in for the purpose, so the stern is clear for at sea. YMMV

Cheers,

Ann

[noelex 77]

We will shortly address more of the questions and great specific suggestions.

On the broader issue of the overall philosophy behind boat design, one of the concepts to consider is the effect of boat length.

If we were building a 35' yacht, some of the advice would be quite different. A simpler boat would be suggested. At the same time, even ignoring cost, many would praise this size of boat, noting it would be much less work than a larger boat.

Our ideal cruising boat has the speed, safety, seaworthiness and stability of a 50' yacht, together with the storage capacity for all our water, fuel, propane, spares, provisions and junk. Room for lots of solar panels means power is not an issue. Toys like paddle boards, bikes etc can be easily stored. There is room to incorporate a pilot house, workshop and technical area. A large island bed means blissful sleep at anchor. There are many benefits to a larger boat without fitting more systems.

A 50' boat has some extra maintenance in the form of more antifouling, but if systems are kept the same as on a 35 footer, the overall maintenance would not be greatly increased. There are even some savings, as there is room to design systems with easy access.

Does a couple who has lived happily for years without a generator, air-conditioning, ducted heating, dishwasher, multiple heads and showers, pressure hot water everywhere, a big freezer etc, need these simply because the boat size has increased? The room for a larger solar array and propane storage means the advantage of things like a generator has greatly diminished, not increased. The greater water storage capacity means that even the advantage of a watermaker is less.

There is no virtue in doing without systems. I believe in making cruising as comfortable as possible, even luxurious in some aspects, but part of my idea of comfort is the time to swim, walk and explore, as well as for that most difficult job of putting my feet up and watching the world drift by. In terms of effort, the cost/benefit ratio needs to evaluated with each system installed. The answer will not be the same for everyone.

The danger of including lots of creature comforts is that it can reach the stage where it is close to a full time job just repairing and maintaining things, and trying to source replacement parts in remote spots. That is not my idea of fun.

You can pay someone to do the work, but you end up spending a lot of time in port rather than out in the blue yonder. Once again, not my idea of fun.

I think it is a trap fitting a larger boat with more "stuff" simply because there is room to do so. It is a trap I hope to avoid.

Now where is that washing machine going?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

We will shortly address more of the questions and great specific suggestions.

On the broader issue of the overall philosophy behind boat design, one of the concepts to consider is the effect of boat length.

If we were building a 35' yacht, some of the advice would be quite different. A simpler boat would be suggested. At the same time, even ignoring cost, many would praise this size of boat, noting it would be much less work than a larger boat.

Our ideal cruising boat has the speed, safety, seaworthiness and stability of a 50' yacht, together with the storage capacity for all our water, fuel, propane, spares, provisions and junk. Room for lots of solar panels means power is not an issue. Toys like paddle boards, bikes etc can be easily stored. There is room to incorporate a pilot house, workshop and technical area. A large island bed means blissful sleep at anchor. There are many benefits to a larger boat without fitting more systems.

A 50' boat has some extra maintenance in the form of more antifouling, but if systems are kept the same as on a 35 footer, the overall maintenance would not be greatly increased. There are even some savings, as there is room to design systems with easy access.

Does a couple who has lived happily for years without a generator, air-conditioning, ducted heating, dishwasher, multiple heads and showers, pressure hot water everywhere, a big freezer etc, need these simply because the boat size has increased? The room for a larger solar array and propane storage means the advantage of things like a generator has greatly diminished, not increased. The greater water storage capacity means that even the advantage of a watermaker is less.

There is no virtue in doing without systems. I believe in making cruising as comfortable as possible, even luxurious in some aspects, but part of my idea of comfort is the time to swim, walk and explore, as well as for that most difficult job of putting my feet up and watching the world drift by. In terms of effort, the cost/benefit ratio needs to evaluated with each system installed. The answer will not be the same for everyone.

The danger of including lots of creature comforts is that it can reach the stage where it is close to a full time job just repairing and maintaining things, and trying to source replacement parts in remote spots. That is not my idea of fun.

You can pay someone to do the work, but you end up spending a lot of time in port rather than out in the blue yonder. Once again, not my idea of fun.

I think it is a trap fitting a larger boat with more "stuff" simply because there is room to do so. It is a trap I hope to avoid.

Now where is that washing machine going?

LOL!

You don't have to justify your choices to us, the peanut gallery. We're just giving our own narrow perspectives, for whatever they could be worth to you

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

LOL!

You don't have to justify your choices to us, the peanut gallery. We're just giving our own narrow perspectives, for whatever they could be worth to you

What?!!
They had better make good on the advice!

[Jim Cate]

G'day Nolex and SWL,
Been following this thread with great interest. I applaud your approach of a medium large vessel with the appurtenances of a smaller one. A realistic appraisal of your needs rather than accommodating everything shown at the latest boat show is refreshing to me, and it will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

FWIW, this isn't far off the philosophy of our own Insatiable II, although there are some differences between alloy and strip planking. Since we seem to agree on lots of the design parameters, I must complement you on your wisdom!!

Finally, I'm really impressed by the photos of the inside of the hull construction. They show a degree of sophistication and attention to detail not often seen in alloy boats (whose pedigree is often oriented towards work-boats rather than yachts).

What a fun, exciting and scary project! I won't exhibit my ignorance by making off the wall suggestions, but will watch with fascination as the design matures.

Thanks for sharing the process with us.

Jim

[s/v Jedi]

About the anchoring system: agree with the choice of windlass. I have a 12V Maxwell 3500 and that is plenty for my 80kg Bruce. Make sure you specify a Maxwell chain stopper to go with that setup.
The chain locker has to have a certain dimension ratio for good self stowing. I believe the Dashew book has the info.

On propane: you seem to be solidly in the pro-propane camp still, I would suggest you research this more like others did suggest already. After all, propane is a fossil fuel just like diesel, except it is much more dangerous and the #1 cause of fatal accidents on boats. You already carry diesel, so why not make most out of that and forget the propane all together. Installing a diesel genset to help when solar doesn't provide enough is not a bad idea as it can be done in the same space that would be used for propane storage. Besides for cooking, it's electrical output can be used universally for many things.

Also mentioned by others is induction cooking. It is not just similar to propane cooking, it is better because the pot/pan itself becomes the heat source and it is just as fast for adjustments as propane. Very unlike the old electric cooktops. I emphasize this as we just did a custom job in our motorhome that is all-electric, no propane, and we installed a professional grade 3,000W Cooktek induction cooktop. This is so good that we are changing the boat too. We have a 2nd, 1,800W portable unit that can be used on the table (fondue!) or in the cockpit as well as 2nd burner in the galley.

Besides not getting the moisture from burning propane, you also get so little heat in the cabin that it is not noticeable.
For oven/grill the Breville 800 is the thing.

Back to the generator: we have a regime that is based on a 1-2 hour runtime of the generator every so many days (it varies). What we do is we run the battery charger, high capacity watermaker, A/C and cook inside. This brings us all the water we need, gets some moisture out of the boat (saves the interior), gets rid of the heat for a nice sleep inside, and allows for a meal that is different from the cockpit grilled food.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I think everyone calls that boat the Helicopter Boat , but the the real name is Anabel.
For those that don't know, it was constructed for a helicopter pilot. I saw it being built and 'amazing' does not quite cover it. It does show K&M will build exactly what you want.

This is the switch panel at the helm:



Our boat will be much less complicated.

The interior style will be simple with solid timber and white finishes.

Here is a link to the Nav station on Hugh Howey's new Catamaran that he has been discussing on Cf. Looks great. Can't beat a sheltered foward facing nav station.

Wayfinder | Wayfinder Build: Part 8 – Furniture

Check out Hughs solution of stowage at stern for paddleboards.

http://www.the-wayfinder.com/wayfind...-coming-along/

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by poiu

Congratulations on the not so soon to be born baby.
........
Dinghy
Probably not a helpful suggestion for you as it may change the boat too much to be viable: it seems to me that a dinghy on davits or even on deck is hideous, blocks the view and in extremis is not especially safe. A boat with a dingy on davits or on deck is essentially a bigger boat, so why not build it bigger anyway. It would give extra waterline and storage. If designed to combine with a lost lazarette and sugar scoop bathing platform it would actually require only a little extra length anyway.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know what you're planning to do about a dinghy, but in my opinion this is the bane of cruising boat design. I like Poiu's idea of trading length for inside dinghy storage. If you're going to have empty ends anyway, just extend the stern to make room for a dinghy garage, and get more waterline length as a bonus. Have a look at the dinghy garage of the Hallberg Rassy 64 for inspiration.

Poiu, many thanks for the lengthy, informative response.
Regarding the dinghy, this is a big issue and one area where we will have to compromise.

Dinghy storage is always a headache, except on very large boats with huge "garages" at the rear. Better heads than ours have mulled over this issue.
Our current boat has tackled this in the manner you both suggest, except the dinghy is exposed. The original owners had wanted a smaller boat and the architect persuaded them to go to 48' and incorporate easy exterior dinghy storage (it just pulls directly up onto a long transom. It is fantastic and one thing I will miss a lot - I am reasonably lightweight in build and I can easily launch it on my own in less than a couple of minutes.

We don't really want to play with extending the size of this new boat even further though. The balanced look of the boat would be ruined unless the entire boat was redesigned, including a larger rig. We would then end up with a boat in the mid 50's, not what we particularly want.

So other alternatives need to be sought and compromises made. As we would like a decent solar array, an arch at the rear is the logical spot for this, although I agree it does detract from the looks. With an arch it is easy then to incorporate davits (and these can easily be made very strong on an aluminium boat). This makes launching and retrieval of the dinghy simple. There will be room in front of the mast to store the dinghy inverted for long or very rough passages.

The arch and davits will be designed as an integral part of the boat, rather than just an add one. This means they can not only be engineered to be strong, but ballast and rig can be arranged so that they have a minimum impact on the balance of the boat.

At the moment this seems the best solution.

SWL

[poiu]

Another suggestion for your consideration:

Halyard tensioner/slider
These are made by Antal and Harken and maybe others I don't know about. They will allow all those ugly, bulky coils of rope to be removed from the mast. To properly benefit from your inside helm you will want as little as possible obstructing your vision so it will be especially useful for you. They also allow you to use single core dyneema, reducing weight aloft and to greatly reduce the amount of rope you have to carry and buy. If specified new they will be paid for in savings in running rigging and clutches. A no brainer. They are on my upgrade list.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

We will shortly address more of the questions and great specific suggestions.

On the broader issue of the overall philosophy behind boat design, one of the concepts to consider is the effect of boat length.

If we were building a 35' yacht, some of the advice would be quite different. A simpler boat would be suggested. At the same time, even ignoring cost, many would praise this size of boat, noting it would be much less work than a larger boat.

Our ideal cruising boat has the speed, safety, seaworthiness and stability of a 50' yacht, together with the storage capacity for all our water, fuel, propane, spares, provisions and junk. Room for lots of solar panels means power is not an issue. Toys like paddle boards, bikes etc can be easily stored. There is room to incorporate a pilot house, workshop and technical area. A large island bed means blissful sleep at anchor. There are many benefits to a larger boat without fitting more systems.

A 50' boat has some extra maintenance in the form of more antifouling, but if systems are kept the same as on a 35 footer, the overall maintenance would not be greatly increased. There are even some savings, as there is room to design systems with easy access.

Does a couple who has lived happily for years without a generator, air-conditioning, ducted heating, dishwasher, multiple heads and showers, pressure hot water everywhere, a big freezer etc, need these simply because the boat size has increased? The room for a larger solar array and propane storage means the advantage of things like a generator has greatly diminished, not increased. The greater water storage capacity means that even the advantage of a watermaker is less.

There is no virtue in doing without systems. I believe in making cruising as comfortable as possible, even luxurious in some aspects, but part of my idea of comfort is the time to swim, walk and explore, as well as for that most difficult job of putting my feet up and watching the world drift by. In terms of effort, the cost/benefit ratio needs to evaluated with each system installed. The answer will not be the same for everyone.

The danger of including lots of creature comforts is that it can reach the stage where it is close to a full time job just repairing and maintaining things, and trying to source replacement parts in remote spots. That is not my idea of fun.

You can pay someone to do the work, but you end up spending a lot of time in port rather than out in the blue yonder. Once again, not my idea of fun.

I think it is a trap fitting a larger boat with more "stuff" simply because there is room to do so. It is a trap I hope to avoid.

Now where is that washing machine going?

I get it. Really I do. The issue is where one chooses to draw the line.

Now, as to washing machines. A good compromise of KISS I think. But why not push the boundary just a little further. A modern washer drier occupies just the same space as a washer. They are pretty much all in the EU anyway of standard dimensions. A washer takes 2kw hr, a drier 5kw hr per cycle roughly. Just a little more power, but no hanging out, no moisture in the boat and a bit more luxury and convenience. Of course the extra power would be a bit easier with a genset....just kidding.

I'd put the washer in the 100% dry bit of the boat. Mine is in the laz and a few drips of seawater got on the case. It will come to an early demise because of that.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Poiu, many thanks for the lengthy, informative response.
Regarding the dinghy, this is a big issue and one area where we will have to compromise.

Dinghy storage is always a headache, except on very large boats with huge "garages" at the rear. Better heads than ours have mulled over this issue.
Our current boat has tackled this in the manner you both suggest, except the dinghy is exposed. The original owners had wanted a smaller boat and the architect persuaded them to go to 48' and incorporate easy exterior dinghy storage (it just pulls directly up onto a long transom. It is fantastic and one thing I will miss a lot - I am reasonably lightweight in build and I can easily launch it on my own in less than a couple of minutes.

We don't really want to play with extending the size of this new boat even further though. The balanced look of the boat would be ruined unless the entire boat was redesigned, including a larger rig. We would then end up with a boat in the mid 50's, not what we particularly want.

So other alternatives need to be sought and compromises made. As we would like a decent solar array, an arch at the rear is the logical spot for this, although I agree it does detract from the looks. With an arch it is easy then to incorporate davits (and these can easily be made very strong on an aluminium boat). This makes launching and retrieval of the dinghy simple. There will be room in front of the mast to store the dinghy inverted for long or very rough passages.

The arch and davits will be designed as an integral part of the boat, rather than just an add one. This means they can not only be engineered to be strong, but ballast and rig can be arranged so that they have a minimum impact on the balance of the boat.

At the moment this seems the best solution.

SWL

I like the idea of balancing the boat. Often davits and dinghy are not in the original design as an integral element.

You could look also at mods later relatively easily. That is an advantage of aluminium. Dashew on setsail.com extended one of his motor boats after launch by just fabricating a chunk for the stern and welding it on.