Bestevaer 49ST

[Seaworthy Lass]

Again, many thanks everyone for the suggestions. One of the wonderful things about CF is advice like this, generously offered.

We are addressing the posts one by one.

Originally Posted by weavis

The Washing machine.
As you will be keeping areas clear of stuff...... Perhaps you should consider putting in clothes racks for drying and a good hot air blower and a good extraction ventilator. It keeps the deck clear of yer undies and works in all weather.
On my MoBo in Florida, I had a washer/dryer combo but found running the hot air fan in a spare cabin on the clothes and using a window fan to extract was much better.

Our drying racks will consist of coat hangers on the overhead handrails and the very practical floor to ceiling rail on one side of the Reflex heater. The ventilation on the boat will be excellent with the hatches open (7 x 500x500mm hatches). I hope we will be alone in our anchorages, as we are now, and hanging items outside on the Spectra lifelines will not be an issue, but I do bring nearly dry items in at night to avoid damp night air and lots of space to hang them overnight will be lovely . With a reasonable amount of spare clothes and bedding, washing in bad conditions can be avoided completely.

Originally Posted by weavis

As you outline your thinking per the design, I note hesitation in some areas. I believe you are absolutely right to keep the operational features simple, and this is good thinking, yet do not be afraid to add things that are NOT essential to the running of the vessel. Make sure these things can be ripped out and thrown overboard and the vessel can still be sailed. My simplistic view of it keeps the balance for me. It is going to be your home so darned well make it comfortable without compromise to the essentials.

This reflects our ideas well ie to have a basic set up that is simple and trouble free, and supplemented only with items we could do without. I think we are very lucky in that we can live with bare essentials very happily (as long as I have my good china and linen ). Yes, there is still some hesitation with lots of areas and that is why feedback from the forum is invaluable.

Originally Posted by weavis

I would personally carry a second water maker kit or have a second system installed or even a portable unit in the event of breakdown. Rich Borens systems are amazing value and reliability for the money.

Will think about this. With big tanks and a water collection system off the deck, this may be unnecessary.

Originally Posted by weavis

As for sound-just do it.

Yep. My better half has a keen ear . When we had our last home built, his only requirements were "a spot for the car and a good space for listening to music". I had a completely free run with designing our last two houses otherwise (and had a ball doing it), so I am now really enjoying sharing in the designing of our new home - the boat.

An ideal hifi system just can't be incorporated in a boat. The space is just not right and Class A amplifiers and speakers weighing 150+ lbs each are just not practical (see, some hifi knowledge has rubbed off after a few decades ). Some of the speakers we have at home will be brought on board. They are useless sitting in storage.

Originally Posted by weavis

Waiting for a boat to be built is not something I have the patience for. Im quite happy going off the shelf with minor changes in a quick time. If I designed a vessel, I would find something I would want to change when I got it so its easy for me to live with something Im not keen on from an off the shelf design already.

I am not known for my patience, but house and boat design is a sheer pleasure if you have somewhere nice to be living while planning. The process of thinking about all our requirements, then deciding how to implement them, then seeing plans develop and finally slowly watching the home/boat come to life is a wonderful process. We will savour each step in this lengthy process .

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

Congratulations on the not so soon to be born baby.

This thread has enough substance to support a whole forum in itself! A lot of good ideas already, so I have been beaten to it.

I understand the KISS principle and I sympathise with it as I have spent far too many hours maintaining and fixing stuff than I would like, but I also like my comforts. I'd probably go a bit more towards comfort than you may like, so I apologise if these suggestions may not properly take account of what you want, they have my bias.

I love the basics. Alu light sealed non-leaking structure, standpipes. waterproof bulkheads, raised saloon and protected all weather helm, big mechanical space and storage.

Heating/cooling
Both are a necessity in many parts of the world, not a luxury. Unless you are going into places where water temperatures are below 5deg C a reverse cycle air con system is very effective and efficient, no less efficient than a drip heater. I would insulate the boat very well, ideally control all the ventilation mechanically as once you have got insulation under control most heat/cooling is lost in ventilation. With good insulation and controlled ventilation the heating/cooling requirements of a boat will be tiny and much, much smaller than is usually provided in boats. With your tiny sized air con/heating system it will be possible to run it off batteries through an inverter and to run it 24/7. This will mean you will need a small generator, find it affordable to run heating/cooling and you will enjoy it because it doesn't cost much and improves comfort particularly valuable when it is hot and heats/cools every cabin. My air con has involved only about a day of maintenance in 5 years replacing a failed pump. The genset - no problems at all (Onan). Not the worst area of the boat for failures, so I think an area for KISS to be compromised.

Hifi
I have an a/c Linn amp and quality overhead speakers in each area. Cockpit, saloon, owner's and guest cabin all fed from MP3s on the PC. Great sound and not optional equipment in my view.

Batteries
LiFePo4. Big thumbs up for these. Mine have been great. Not many dissenters out there.

Genset/power
lots of advantages. It means you can ditch the noisy ugly wind turbine, gives tons of quick charging power and you probably need it for full heating/air con and all the other luxuries. I realise it will take a lot to sell the genset to you.

To keep the genset near to fully loaded in use and therfore efficient, you will need to remove all peak loads from it, so I would run all a/c pumps through inverters or soft starters or make them DC and run them off the battery/inverter. This might also mean a DC slow output watermaker like the katadyn. This also has the result that you need a smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient and cheaper to buy generator. I suspect the smallest 3 cylinder kubota based unit you can find will work fine if you design the boat along these lines.

I'd go for the Victron or Mastervolt charger/inverters. Victron also do a super light, seemingly switch mode isolation transformer. I don't know how that works. I wonder if it is suitable?

Radar mast
I note it is on the port side in the picture, shouldn't it be on the starboard side? I think it would be tidier up the mast though. I'd think about making room for the new Simrad Halo open array type. Looks like a game changer.

Chain claw
Seems missing. I would fit one. What, he is advising the anchoring guru of something to do with anchoring. What impertinence.

Water tank/water maker
I'd go for smaller tanks than you suggest. It seems to be the trend on new builds as if you have a watermaker you don't need a big tank. I'd have moderate tanks though as you may be sitting out in a stinky harbour for a week where you can't run the watermaker. I'd make the extra tank a fuel tank instead and carry a decent hand held emergency r/o unit in case it fails on a big crossing.

Dinghy
Probably not a helpful suggestion for you as it may change the boat too much to be viable: it seems to me that a dinghy on davits or even on deck is hideous, blocks the view and in extremis is not especially safe. A boat with a dingy on davits or on deck is essentially a bigger boat, so why not build it bigger anyway. It would give extra waterline and storage. If designed to combine with a lost lazarette and sugar scoop bathing platform it would actually require only a little extra length anyway.

Winches/furlers
I'd go for the new reversible electric type. So much safer to power out. Electric is a lot less effort of course. My electric winches have been pretty reliable and I think they are in general, so going electric is another area for the KISS principle to be compromised. You will be an old crock before you sell this boat and so you are building for your dotage probably. I'd go for powered furlers too unless you can make your winches work double easily. If furlers are electric rather than hydraulic saves having an hydraulic power pack and deck clutter with lines.

Bimini
I'd make it fixed and insulated as sunbrella lets a lot of heat through and cover it in flexible lightweight solar panels with a couple of windows to see the sails. Also panels on the deckhouse. I'd put tracks down the side to put side covers down to give a totally dry cockpit for wet passages or for when it is really rainy. In the tropics nearly every boat has a bimini and keep them up all the time, so why not make it permanent to start with. I'd make it hurricane proof. Having solar panels here should mean you don't need an arch.

Sea-chest.
I.e. minimum through hulls. Just seems sensible.

Aluminium
You obviously like it as you are going for a second one. Aluminium has high emissivity - don't you feel the heat inside on a hot sunny day?

Swing keel/rudders
Having been shut out of quite a few shallow spots this is something that appeals to me. It would occasionaly be great to get right up to the shore. Twin spade rudders for redundancy and efficiency appeals too.

Sealable dorades
I have lost a few bits of kit due to seawater ingress. Worth fitting seals, but I can't see any dorades on the pictures. How do you get fresh air in at sea? I can understand removing dorades as they will block the view, but you still need to get air inside.

Dashew's ideas.
Mostly are good. There is the book as Jedi mentions. A ton on his website too. I'd copy a lot. A few above are promoted by him, but there are many others like putting the fridge keel cooler in a fresh water tank chamber. DC air con water pumps for each compressor. External shading for all windows. Oil change equipment etc, etc.

Fridge
To help with the KISS process: I recently installed a frigoboat fridge evaporator with is a freezer chamber with a lid. With it I have a fridge and a small freezer combined. Works really well for ice, ice cream and the odd fish filleted and I don't bother turning on the freezer now.

Propane.
This is against your KISS principle. I'd vote electric, but you do need to concede on the genset first. Anyway, with the space and weight with the tanks you can house a genset, improve safety and reliability on board and reduce hassle in not hunting down or decanting propane.

There you go, my 2 pence worth.

Some great ideas here!

I don't know what you're planning to do about a dinghy, but in my opinion this is the bane of cruising boat design. I like Poiu's idea of trading length for inside dinghy storage. If you're going to have empty ends anyway, just extend the stern to make room for a dinghy garage, and get more waterline length as a bonus. Have a look at the dinghy garage of the Hallberg Rassy 64 for inspiration.

I think you've already decided against it, but Poiu's idea about HVAC further enhances synergies of the "all electric" approach. At my latitudes I just in no way need air conditioning, so reverse cycle heat is out, but if I did need AC even occasionally, I would jump on this. Depending on water temperature, you can be using less diesel fuel running the genset to run this, than you would burn in the Reflex heater.

And I think you've also decided against this, but electric cooking has a very great many virtues, including not only safety but keeping all the carp including water vapor out of your indoor air.

I strongly support Poiu's comments on electric winches, sealable dorades, etc. Electric winches are bulletproof and zero maintenance. The new reversible ones are really cool. $$$, of course.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[redsky49]

Since you now seem to have fallen into the design by committee abyss, I no longer feel reluctant to add my thoughts to the mix!

1. While I can admire cassette type refrigerators such as these:



Not the least for the improved access, a purpose built, in place unit will always out perform alternatives. I am currently in 90 degree F temp's, with water temp's in the 80's and my previously great performing sea water-cooled refrig is struggling. Four inches (min) of R-6 or better, double gasketed doors, etc. should all be considered. We don't have a freezer. It sure would be nice to have a cubic foot of freezer space (around 0-10 degrees F) for some meats, ice cream and ice cubes.

2. Standpipes are great, just make certain that they are adequately braced to withstand the weight of a person falling against them. Lever force can be considerable.

3. Electrical wiring. In lieu of a conduit (always smooth bore, not corrugated) I would have raceways running both sides of the hull. They would have removable or hinged covers, would be perforated to allow ventilation and wiring exits, and would be divided horizontally - upper raceway for high voltage (220 in your case) and the lower raceway for 12/24V. Perhaps make them non-conductive plastic. Note that wiring which is bundled or enclosed must be de-rated for capacity.

I am always fiddling or modifying the electrical on my boat and unobstructed pathways for wiring would be a god send.

4. The washer is gold. My wife's biggest complaint is laundry. Happy wife, happy life!

5. As I get older, an electric winch is becoming a consideration, as is going from slab reefing to something easier. Leisure Furl is something I am thinking about very seriously. Getting the main secured in rough seas is just becoming too dangerous for me, especially with my center cockpit.

6. In lieu of lifelines, I think I might go with full length rails. Or perhaps extended pulpits and pushpits.

While I appreciate the pros and cons of the elec. vs propane stove dilemma, I would always select gas if you enjoy to cook. Electric cooktops are just not satisfying. Also depends on how much you cook, I suppose.

Can't wait for some vicarious experiences along with you.

We expect pictures!

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I calculated the numbers a while ago on the standard displacement. Our boat will be a little heavier due to a slightly greater skin thickness (increased 2mm for most of the hull with a 4mm increase at the bow and 1mm on the deck and superstructure) and beefier rudder etc, but the numbers are still good. The hull is not very beamy and is reasonably easily driven. I think strictly speaking SA/D is calculated based on your 100% fore triangle, so it is a boat rig property, not a sail property and does not change with larger or smaller headsails, but I may have this wrong. The numbers look good to me for the intended use of the boat, especially as a cutter effectively gets a boost in the SA/D which is not reflected in the numbers. Using 100% fore triangle the results are:



More answers to come .

So what plate thickness are you using? Is frame/stringer spacing being changed at all to wider, or are you keeping the same? What alloy are you using?


Did I mention I'm extremely jealous!

Oh yeah...If I had your space, the one thing I would add is a small dishwasher. They typically use very little power, shortish run time, and less water than most hand washing. I don't even do the dishes on our boat, but being able to have an empty sink right after a meal would be priceless.

Matt

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Eight double sampson posts welded to both the deck and toe rail have been specified.

. . .

Yes, protecting the anchor winch motor from spray/slash water is important and this is done poorly in most boats with a vertical windlass. On our current boat we incorporated a baffle that isolates the motor area and the same will be done again. An oversized anchor winch is a great safety feature. We are probably going for a 24V Maxwell 4000.


. . .


Wouldn't they get in the way of the yankee on a cutter rig?


:

I think you're calling sampson posts what I would call cleats -- I meant a really strong sampson post at the windlass, for belaying the chain. If you're going to have a bare alu deck ("agricultural" in Noelex's words), then there is no reason in the world not to go whole hog for the total fishing boat foredeck Which is a particular dream of mine. Massive horizontal windlass, sampson post, hell, you could even do a devil's claw like on a ship I HATE the crappy vertical windlass "streamlined" arrangement which normal cruising boats have -- just not made for serious ground tackle handling.


Concerning jumper stays -- no, they don't interfere with the headsails. Running backstays are a PITA, and this is a great enhancement to a cutter rig. My Moody 54 was the prototype of this design and unfortunately lacks them, but they were fitted to all subsequent M54's AFAIK. You will still want to use the running backs in strong weather, but the jumper stays will allow you to leave them off in normal conditions, reducing workload and PITA factor in the cockpit, especially when tacking.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[noelex 77]

We are gradually working our way through all the suggestions. Keep them coming. Sorry if you have posted and we have not replied yet. There are so many good ideas. It is taking a while even with the two of us.

This could be the first CF designed boat. Perhaps CF can pay for it as well .

Thanks for the comments Nick.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- Study the Dashew Cruising Encyclopedia chapters on building aluminium boats.

Dashew has some great ideas. I agree with almost all he writes, but I have never bought his book and you are dead right I should do.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- Use a lawyer to check the contract: who owns materials, hull runder construction etc.

Another great idea. Is there anyone you would recommend? Preferably in Amsterdam. Or can anyone else chime in here please?

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- install a proper isolation transformer and a catalytic corrosion alarm
- engine and drive line? Genset?

No shore power. We use ours so little at the moment (the last time was over a year ago) that I don't think we will miss it, especially with more than double the solar output we have at the moment and in addition, perhaps a wind generator. So no isolation transformer will be needed. Corrosion meter yes. Engine Yanmar 75hp, aquadrive CV B 15.10 probably PSS seal and 3 blade Maxiprop.

No genset. Total power from solar/wind/ engine alt. It works well on our boat and should be even better with room for more solar and probably wind as well.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- SSB install is often not done right by Dutch yards unless they consulted with an expert.

Yes, agreed. Will probably get the back stay rigged with two isolators and install the rest later. A lot of boats these days seem to use a plastic covered aerial that slips over the back stay rather than two isolators. Any thoughts from anyone?

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- What brand & type of ball valves do they put on the aluminium inlets?

They use aluminium standpipes above the waterline on all fittings. So a broken/ leaking seacock or hose does not sink the boat. The valves will be Marelon to eliminate the dissimilar metal problem.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- The anchoring setup is often weak with Dutch builds: too small windlass, separate batteries instead of big diameter wire, too small chain locker that is not auto-stowing well etc.

The windlass will be a Maxwell 4000 so it should have plenty of grunt. The chain locker is back from the bow so there is a deep drop and plenty of room for loads of chain with the weight reasonably removed from the bow.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Noelex - lots of great suggestions and I can't add anytihing to what has been said.

Having said that - I'll now come with a suggestion, which you probably ahve thought about , but here goes.

Were it my boat I would have a workshop built in . With standing headrooma nd a narrow filebench(with a good vise) underneath tool boxes, bolts, nuts, shackles etc.

Evans had one on Hawk - I belive he called it the "bat cave".

I'd also ensure it ahd a large hatch above so it would be easy to get things up and down.
Finally I'd mount a multitude of electrical sockets - both 12V and 220V

We have a workshop on our current boat, that I call the "man cave" .

Unfortunately, with a larger pilothouse (we are increasing the size compared to a standard Bestevaer 49ST by 750mm) there is little headroom in the rear cabins, one of which will be the "technical area" adjacent to the open engine. So in addition a large aluminium workbench with vice etc and with heaps of well secured storage bins will probably be incorporated in the large empty space to the rear of the rear bulkhead (see photo for an example of a small workbench there).

There will be lots of 12V sockets, but only about 5 double 240V ones. Mostly all our current power needs are 12V.

SWL

The small workshop bench with vice in the rear storage area of the Bestevaer "Albatross" (our washing machine will be indoors, not out here):

[poiu]

Originally Posted by redsky49

Since you now seem to have fallen into the design by committee abyss, I no longer feel reluctant to add my thoughts to the mix!

1. While I can admire cassette type refrigerators such as these:

Attachment 103381

Not the least for the improved access, a purpose built, in place unit will always out perform alternatives. I am currently in 90 degree F temp's, with water temp's in the 80's and my previously great performing sea water-cooled refrig is struggling. Four inches (min) of R-6 or better, double gasketed doors, etc. should all be considered. We don't have a freezer. It sure would be nice to have a cubic foot of freezer space (around 0-10 degrees F) for some meats, ice cream and ice cubes.

2. Standpipes are great, just make certain that they are adequately braced to withstand the weight of a person falling against them. Lever force can be considerable.

3. Electrical wiring. In lieu of a conduit (always smooth bore, not corrugated) I would have raceways running both sides of the hull. They would have removable or hinged covers, would be perforated to allow ventilation and wiring exits, and would be divided horizontally - upper raceway for high voltage (220 in your case) and the lower raceway for 12/24V. Perhaps make them non-conductive plastic. Note that wiring which is bundled or enclosed must be de-rated for capacity.

I am always fiddling or modifying the electrical on my boat and unobstructed pathways for wiring would be a god send.

4. The washer is gold. My wife's biggest complaint is laundry. Happy wife, happy life!

5. As I get older, an electric winch is becoming a consideration, as is going from slab reefing to something easier. Leisure Furl is something I am thinking about very seriously. Getting the main secured in rough seas is just becoming too dangerous for me, especially with my center cockpit.

6. In lieu of lifelines, I think I might go with full length rails. Or perhaps extended pulpits and pushpits.

While I appreciate the pros and cons of the elec. vs propane stove dilemma, I would always select gas if you enjoy to cook. Electric cooktops are just not satisfying. Also depends on how much you cook, I suppose.

Can't wait for some vicarious experiences along with you.

We expect pictures!

I agree about gas being so much better to cook with than electric, but induction electric is different. It is as good as gas in my view and doesn't use anywhere near as much power as regular electric.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think you're calling sampson posts what I would call cleats -- I meant a really strong sampson post at the windlass, for belaying the chain. If you're going to have a bare alu deck ("agricultural" in Noelex's words), then there is no reason in the world not to go whole hog for the total fishing boat foredeck Which is a particular dream of mine. Massive horizontal windlass, sampson post, hell, you could even do a devil's claw like on a ship I

We will have no cleats, as I know cleats (a double horn).

The eight double "sampson posts" I am referring to are are bollards with cross pieces that will act as cleats (see photo below). Not sure if "sampson post" is the right terminology for the ones not at the bow. Anyway, they will all be strong enough to take the anchoring gear, as they go all the way through the deck and are then welded to the frames below. We have just one single one at our bow at the moment and it is brilliant, so eight doubles (welded to the toe rail as well as the frames) will be a lovely overkill.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Concerning jumper stays -- no, they don't interfere with the headsails. Running backstays are a PITA, and this is a great enhancement to a cutter rig. My Moody 54 was the prototype of this design and unfortunately lacks them, but they were fitted to all subsequent M54's AFAIK. You will still want to use the running backs in strong weather, but the jumper stays will allow you to leave them off in normal conditions, reducing workload and PITA factor in the cockpit, especially when tacking.

Are you able to post a photo of this? It sounds like an excellent idea that we could incorporate. I agree running backstays are an absolute PITA.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The windlass will be a Maxwell 4000 so it should have plenty of grunt. The chain locker is back from the bow so there is a deep drop and plenty of room for loads of chain with the weight reasonably removed from the bow.

That's certainly the right choice for a vertical windlass -- at least you can get a proper band brake for it!

But you might think about horizontal windlasses. Like the Lighthouse 3002:

Lighthouse Manufacturing USA

It's more "agricultural" and much less "streamlined" but much better in use and much easier to repair.

Lofrans also make some nice ones:

Horizontal Windlass - Titan

I especially like the fab band brake on these, and the vertical warping drum. Now that's serious ground tackle handling

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Concerning jumper stays -- no, they don't interfere with the headsails. Running backstays are a PITA, and this is a great enhancement to a cutter rig. My Moody 54 was the prototype of this design and unfortunately lacks them, but they were fitted to all subsequent M54's AFAIK. You will still want to use the running backs in strong weather, but the jumper stays will allow you to leave them off in normal conditions, reducing workload and PITA factor in the cockpit, especially when tacking.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I'll second that vote for jumper struts. Mine are good. Downside is less control of the mast curve and therefore of sail shape.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Are you able to post a photo of this? It sounds like an excellent idea that we could incorporate. I agree running backstays are an absolute PITA.

Here you are:



From the Selden tuning manual. They are used not only on fractional rigs but on cutters as well. Selden design and make them for their masts; Moodys all use Selden.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

I'll second that vote for jumper struts. Mine are good. Downside is less control of the mast curve and therefore of sail shape.

Oyster use the same Selden rigs as Moody did, so I'm sure the arrangement is the same.

If you have in-mast furling, you have no control of mast curve anyway so you have lost nothing.

Besides that, you can have running backs in addition to jumpers; recommended in strong weather especially when using the staysail as a storm jib.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by poiu

I'll second that vote for jumper struts. Mine are good. Downside is less control of the mast curve and therefore of sail shape.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Here you are:
......
From the Selden tuning manual. They are used not only on fractional rigs but on cutters as well. Selden design and make them for their masts; Moodys all use Selden.

Thanks, I have come across these on fractional rigs, not cutters. I would have called these lateral diamonds, but my knowledge of terminology here is not great.

Our mast will be a Selden, so this should be an easy request.

Many thanks for the suggestion.

SWL

[Kenomac]

Induction cook tops and infrared oven. Forget about messing with gas cooking. Genset with solar to top off the batteries. I'm just about to pull the trigger on a Solbian 400w solar array for the Bimini.