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Old 07-06-2015, 03:55   #16
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Uhhhh John,

Some errors in your thought process - you need to compile all the data noted in the following equation if you are to be sure the bottle will break

You've neglected the obvious importance of the necessity of being fully aware of the both the length (B) and stretch characterisitics of the line used to hold the bottle(U). Including, of course a factor for the force the bottle is swung with(L) and taking into account the lateral force imparted by the wind(L) (and the vagarities of sudden sheer(S)/gusts(H). Well known to those that study these things is the fact that sunlight has an adverse affect on the strength of glass(*) and therefore this must also be taken into account. Finally you must factor in the gas content of the bubbly used(T) (I'll be happy to taste test a few bottles for yo and let you know the values to be used).

So adding all these up you'll find that everything I've noted above is:

(B)+(U)+(L)+(L)+(S)+(H)+(*)+(T)

Good luck with the new boat
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Old 07-06-2015, 05:13   #17
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Noëlex I'm curious about the bow. The first pic you posted shows what I would have thought to be deformed/stove in/poorly built bows. I know some designs have very fine bows to slice through the water (or containers) that fair quickly into larger frames in a complex concave curve then to a traditional convex curve, but the image appears to show some convex forward, then none and then a more normal fairing into the hull. Is it a design feature, construction flaw or trick of the light in the photo? I can imagine 10mm aluminium would offer a few challenges to the builders there.
P.S. is it alyoumineeyum or aloominum? Maybe a subject for another thread
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Old 07-06-2015, 05:22   #18
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Fabulous! Congratulations!

This looks like something really special. It ticks a whole lot of my boxes, I can tell you that, namely:
1. Pilothouse
2. Watertight compartments
3. Standpipes
4. Insulation and ice resistance (high latitudes!)
But that is certainly not a boat for the Med – rather, for the Barents Sea! Are you planning to change your cruising grounds?

For whatever (little) it may be worth, here are some items from my wish list which may or may not be any inspiration here or there.

1. Indoor watchstanding station with good access to the cockpit. No need for a wheel there – steer with the pilot.
2. Water ballast. More to control heel on long passages than for performance, although you get a big performance boost, too. I’m surprised so few cruising boats have this; the engineering is simple.
3. Rig should be designed from scratch considering preventers and barber haulers so you don’t have to jerry rig it later. Sheet leads well inboard and well outboard. I’m now sold on twing sheet leads versus tracks. All these controls should be led intelligently to the cockpit and have clutches, etc. A multitude of winches – can’t have too many.
4. If you’re going to have furlers, use electric ones rather than having ropes coming back to the cockpit, especially for in-mast if you’re going to have that (guess you wouldn’t have in-mast furling on a boat like that, however). This is something I’ve realized lately; worth a thread probably.
5. Speaking of in-mast furling – after a lot of thought and a couple tens of thousands of miles with in-mast furling, I think I would probably go that way again despite the several serious disadvantages of this system. At least for high latitudes or anywhere with likelihood of tough weather. Being able to reef and unreef from the cockpit without changing course is pure gold in hard weather and/or shorthanded, and always having just the right amount of sail up largely compensates for the loss of performance.
6. Sail locker forward. Lots of deck storage, even though that will reduce accommodation. I don’t need massive “staterooms”; let the sleeping accomodation be smaller. Deck storage designed for convenient access to actual things you need to store there. A specific place for ropes, bicycles, fenders, spare anchors, etc., etc., etc.
7. Think about SA/D. I’ve reduced mine, with my blade jib, from 16.5 to something close to 14, and this is a miraculous transformation for these latitudes. The difference is somewhat misleading because part of the difference is new carbon sail vs old dacron one, but still – Wind range is extended to about 30 knots without reefing, and the lower range is not greatly affected except downwind (and the standard yankee is not a downwind sail, either). Heel and rigging forces dramatically reduced. Instead of an overlapping yankee or genoa, I would rather make the blade the regular working headsail (for these latitudes) and have a Code 0 – tacked to a bowsprit – for lighter conditions. I am starting to think that I wasted my money (and a lot of it) on my new yankee.
8. I would not want two headsails on parallel forestays like Discovery do. All that weight aloft and windage. With a decent sail locker forward I don’t think it’s all that hard to get the Code 0 up and down.
9. I would however want poles for the blade as well as the Code 0. Although these sails work without a pole, there’s nothing like getting the clew out there when sailing downwind.
10. I don’t know if your present boat is cutter rigged or not, but a heavy dacron staysail on a heavy furler is pure gold on a cruising boat. Pure gold with so many uses. If you have a permanently rigged barber hauler to correct clew position on a reach, the elliptical self-tacking tracks are ok. Sailing at night in stiff weather short handed – there’s nothing quite like being able to bring the whole rig down to a compact, completely self tacking system like staysail plus reefed main – zero workload for the watchkeeper and no sudden squall can create any problem. Also gold when you need a storm jib – which is that time when you really DON’T want to be on the foredeck faffing with getting one rigged up. Also gives you one more sail plan option – will work with the full main if that’s the amount of sail you need up (as I recently discovered).
11. If I were ordering a custom boat, I would spend a good bit of time trying to figure out tender storage and solar panel mounting – two essentially insoluable problems on a boat less than 60’ or so, but I would try.
12. We’ve talked about fuel management in another thread. Proper sump with a drain in the main tank; day tank with sight tube. Polishing if you’re into that. Fuel fill well above deck level and out of the way of green water, maybe double sealed. Tank vent out of the way of green water.
13. Walk in engine room with workbench and perfect access to all machinery. Don’t know if that’s possible on a 47 footer, but if I ever change boats, this will be a non negotiable requirement. Should have fabulous ventilation, and – NB! – should be sealed with no air communication with the main hull volume.
14. Enough engine power to punch through wind against tide and get out of a nasty channel. I discovered this in Borkum Riff. Or to motor upwind if you need to for some reason (there are good reasons).
15. No hull penetrations in the main hull volume like in Dashew’s boats. Watertight doors. Cassions around rudder tubes and bow thrusters.
16. For God’s sake, good cockpit drains like my boat DOESN’T have.
17. My boat has heavy Lexan transparent scuttle and counterweighted washboard. Why every boat doesn’t have this, I have no idea – it’s the tits. Easily doubles the amount of natural light in the salon.
18. For cold climates, waste heat recovery from main and genset to be used in the central heating system. If you can find a place for a solid fuel stove on a bulkhead somewhere – maybe in the pilot house? – this is just lovely and cozy. For a central heating furnace, you will have the hard choice to go with a non user serviceable type like Webasto or Eber, or a less efficient and much harder to install non-blown type.
19. Small but heavy duty genset like the 4.5kW Northern Lights. A heavy duty genset utterly transforms electrical life on board because you don’t mind running it when you need to, unlike a high speed intermittent duty genset.
20. Dual alternators on the main engine and completely separate starting and house systems. The house alternator should be heavy duty hot rated continuous duty rated school bus type – worth its weight in gold.
21. Electrical cooking (see above); no propane. Induction cooker and convection oven, microwave/convection combination built-in.
22. You will have to decide whether you are going over to LiFePo batts or not. If so, find a really good engineer to design the system.
23. At the expense of complexity, cost, and weight, there are still a few things which should be redundant:
a. Autopilot. Dual rams and pumps. Let the backup pilot be non-networked.
b. Central heating furnace (if you go with a non-user serviceable type).
c. Inverter/charger. Your whole electrical system goes down if this unit goes down, and they are not reliable. They can be ganged, though, so that is the answer – two of them.
d. Rudders? Twin rudders have a big downside in that you don’t get any prop wash on them. But rudder loss (as we’ve seen from discussions on here) is the common terror of all long-distance sailors. If not twins, I would want a spade rudder with absolutely massive construction, like Dashew’s, good bit shorter than the keel (despite performance loss), not too high aspect (ditto), sacrificial bit on the bottom.
e. Wind instrument, heading sensor, depth sounder, and other critical network sensors. I would lead two separate N2K backbones up the mast.
24. Lots of space for electronics with perfect access. I guess switch panels on hinges with lots of volume behind. In general all the electrical and electronic systems should be designed for very well organized, easily accessible cable runs, in large conduits.
25. Consider separate power supply for critical electronics, a la GMDSS requirement for radios. This is not that hard or expensive – just one extra battery.
26. Life raft and grab bag storage. My boat has a life raft locker in the after deck, with a lid. Much better than having it on the cabin top or in the pushpit where it causes windage, gets in the way, etc.
27. A little, but wonderful thing: Extract ventilation from the galley. My boat has this and it is splendid. Cleverly designed – there are a couple of blowers with ducts through the transom for ventilating the engine room, and the designer just added a third one, which he made galley extract. It makes a huge difference in air quality below, especially in cold weather when the boat is closed up, but in hot weather, too. Electric cooking will also greatly help with this – eliminating the massive amounts of water vapor and other combustion products released by burning propane.
28. Sink drains should go right overboard, not through a gray water tank, at least the galley sink. Galley sink draining into a gray water tank is a recipe for the hideous stinking mess which I have to clean out all too frequently on my boat – ick! – despite very hard efforts to keep organic matter out of the drain. Alternatively, maybe there could be some kind of macerator, and the gray water tank is drained from the bottom through a sump, rather than through a pickup tube like mine. Maybe a macerator (“garbage disposal”) would help.
29. Make sure there’s enough slope in all the drain lines, gray and especially black water, and that they all drain when the boat is heeled.
30. Storage. A place for everything, and everything in its place. Normal boats are not designed for long-term, long-distance cruising, especially in this regard. Tools, parts, supplies, spares – should be rational space for everything, and not by pulling floorboards up and cushions out like on my boat.

That's a few things from my list, off the top of my head
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Old 07-06-2015, 05:46   #19
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The critical, and previously neglected factor, is the anchor's champagne breaking index (CBI).
LOL.
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Old 07-06-2015, 07:24   #20
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Dockhead you might want to have a look at the Stadtschip 58,one has been built by K&M,ticks some boxes,water ballast etc,a good basis to start I would say,just hand them your list wait a while and pick her up...


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Old 07-06-2015, 07:32   #21
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
These photos of the christening of a Bestevaer 49 have made me realise that for years I have been focusing on the wrong aspects of anchor performance.





The critical, and previously neglected factor, is the anchor's champagne breaking index (CBI). I anticipate long, heated discussions on CF on the relative merits of concave and convex designs.

I fully expect all the manufacturers to produce videos showing their design instantly smashing the bottle while the champagne simply bounces intact from rival models.
And Noelex 77 for the win!
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:18   #22
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Noëlex I'm curious about the bow. The first pic you posted shows what I would have thought to be deformed/stove in/poorly built bows. I know some designs have very fine bows to slice through the water (or containers) that fair quickly into larger frames in a complex concave curve then to a traditional convex curve, but the image appears to show some convex forward, then none and then a more normal fairing into the hull. Is it a design feature, construction flaw or trick of the light in the photo?
Looking again at the photo I see what you mean, but it is just an illusion caused by the reflection of a curved wave on the bow.

I have personally seen Katharos, the yacht in question, and the aluminium work is beautifully smooth. This is a K&M photo of the same side of the same boat looking from the rear, that might help:




Without painting the aluminium, which of course they will do if you request it, the finish is not quite as smooth as the gel coat applied to fibreglass, but K&M achieve a result that it is very close with just aluminium.

The oxidised surface of raw aluminium is not to everyone's taste, but it provides a very low maintenance finish that is not easily damaged on rough quays etc.

This photo, taken from the worse angle to highlight any ripples with the light coming from directly ahead, shows the standard achieved. The area above the rubbing strip will be painted on this boat so it left unfinished at this stage:


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Old 07-06-2015, 08:21   #23
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

In looking for other bow photos of the boat in question, I found these taken from the deck of Katharos. Not much relevance to the bow plating, but they are good boat porn showing the chain stored further back and the sturdy bow cleats:





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Old 07-06-2015, 08:43   #24
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
In looking for other bow photos of the boat in question, I found these taken from the deck. Not much relevance to the bow plating, but they are good boat porn showing the chain stored further back and the sturdy bow cleats:





Looks really good

Since we're talking about deck gear and deck configuration, I would add some other things to my list:

1. Very sturdy cleats, at least 8 of them, with fairleads for docklines through the low bulwarks.

2. Horizontal windlass (like a Lighthouse), not a fru-fru vertical one like our boats have. With a warping drum.

3. Massive sampson post

4. Sturdy hard points along the rail for rigging barber haulers, guys, preventers, etc. Guess on an alu boat this is much less of a problem than for our plastic ones.

5. Provision for deploying an anchor off the stern. Maybe not going as far as having a separate windlass back there as some Baltic boats have, but at least, a decent way to lead the rode fair to a winch, store the Fortress on the rail, etc.


and I almost forgot:

x. Jumper stays on the mast so you don't have to use the running backs for inner forestay tension except in hard weather.

xx. Sole plates locked down some way other than by screws. Maybe some kind of latches, to give easy access under them yet keeping them secure.

xxx. Easy, instant access to all through hulls, sea cocks, bilge pumps, etc.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:55   #25
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Ah yes, looks beautifully finished. I quite like the brushed finish of the Ovni's as well. Maybe a bit more forgiving to upkeep and likely a lot less labour. Maybe it has more to do with being a hard chine design as well.
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Old 07-06-2015, 09:02   #26
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

For whatever (little) it may be worth, here are some items from my wish list which may or may not be any inspiration here or there.
Wow, what an amazing response. Thanks Dockhead for two such detailed and, as always, thoughtful replies.

We will go through the points carefully. Several we have already incorporated, but there is lot more to consider here.

That is is one reason why this is such a great forum.
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Old 07-06-2015, 09:41   #27
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

If you get the chance, talk to the owner of the 45' Africa from Egypt (who also owned hull #2 of dykstra's boat). He had to have both boats rewired after the k&m build... I can't remember what he told us was the reason, but it was apparently pretty awful. Seems electrical would be something they would excel at since they build in aluminum.


Also, if you can, find out how they finish the aluminum. It looks like they use a random orbital in the 120 grit range. I would love to copy.

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Old 07-06-2015, 10:28   #28
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

The deck will be aluminum as well?
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Old 07-06-2015, 10:43   #29
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

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If you get the chance, talk to the owner of the 45' Africa from Egypt (who also owned hull #2 of dykstra's boat). He had to have both boats rewired after the k&m build..
Thanks for the tip Matt.

I think it is the owner's third Bestevaer. He has had three built: Guadalupe, Alice then Africa ( I do lots of research ). I have never directly spoken to the owner. If you any contact, or other details please send me a PM.

The standard of European boat wiring (ignoring the UK) is a long way below that is seen in other countries. I have no idea why, but that seems to be the way it is.

A simple example is the very rare use of tinned wiring even by many (most) premium boatbuilders. Crazy.

Anyway, the advantage of custom boatbuilders is that they will build almost anything you want. I have already specified the wire, circuit breakers battery switches etc.
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Old 07-06-2015, 11:02   #30
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re: Bestevaer 49ST

Much happiness to you and SWL as you go forward with your dream boat. I can hardly imagine the excitement of choosing every design element and dealing with a really high quality custom builder. We will all share your anticipation of seeing her come to life.


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