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Old 16-06-2015, 12:23   #271
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Jim Walsh View Post
I'm sitting in St. George's harbor in Bermuda right now admiring a lovely aluminum Swedish yacht which pulled in two days ago. I would love to be able to do an aluminum build. Their boat looks ideal to me.

Theyre anchored in front of me so I can't get a profile picture but the cockpit and stern are great.

It's from Denmark, but nice anyway.
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Old 16-06-2015, 12:52   #272
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I am familiar with the 45, a friends. Very slick looking traditional channel cutter design with racing underbody. These are fast boats. Really nice overall package. You'll love it.
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:01   #273
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I asked the builder of the Bestevaer when I spoke to him at a boat show some years ago about the effect of water ballast on his boats. From my hazy recollection the figure he quoted was up to 4 degrees less heel and a similar number in % of speed increase. Useful, but worth the disadvantages? I think SWL and Noelex don't think so.
Yes I agree. The Bestevaer has a relatively narrow hull and will not gain much with water ballasts. It is a boat that will sail with much more heel than a Cigale. On that one the water ballasts make sense in what regards less heel, higher speed and stability (need to reef the sails later). It all depends on hull design, I mean the efficiency of water ballasts and the heel the boat is designed to sail with.

With a relatively narrow hull, big ballast ratio and deep keel the Bestaever needs to heel to make that ballast work efficiently. At low angles of heel, for instance the 10 the Cigale is designed to sail, the Bestaever will not be able to generate enough RM to sail efficiently.

Note that I have nothing against heeling just different types of hulls, different ways of generating RM.
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:09   #274
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

We have two 4" dorades. They are located about 20" aft of the midhatch. I think they would do a better job of ventilation of the saloon if they were mounted forward of the midhatch, but then they would interffere with access to the mast for reefing, which is probably why they are where they are. However, they do ventilate the galley well.

Since 1983, all our boats have had at least one dorade, and we have never had a problem with anything unwanted other than dust coming in. They have screens to keep out most insects, and if I spray the screens with surface spray, even no-see--ums and sandflies will stay out. Occassionally have to spray the hatch screens, as well. While no-see-um netting is available, it is so fine it inhibits air flow too much for us. (Tried it and rejected it.)

I think it is pretty easy to arrange to have good ventilation at anchor. I would not want to sail with hatch dodgers deployed, but YMMV.

My suggestion would be to find somewhere to incorporate at least two dorades placed so as to allow ventilation of sleeping and cooking quarters while underway. I find it improves the quality of my life, anyway.

[This boat has 6 opening ports for the saloon/galley area, and sometimes I can open the leeward ones for ventilation underway, but not if there are beam seas of any height. If the airs are really light, yes, then fine to open, even the mid and galley hatches, but not if spray or rain happen and can come in from the side. It is then the dorades come into their own. You can tell i think they're a necessity, again, YMMV.]

Ann
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:45   #275
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I have had a careful look at Reflek's installation instructions and a 300 mm clearance is recommended unless a wall has protection. They do not specify though if this is for the flue as well as the heater. Also no mention of clearances required if the flue is shielded. I have queried this with the builder/architect.

300mm . . . . sounds like a foot yea, our chimney was just about that

By the way, I thought carefully about your suggestions regarding a lightweight insulated floor. . . . Laying some thick interlocked foam sheets

Yup, that will work. We laid inexpensive indoor/outdoor carpet down when we were going to winter someplace cold. It stayed in place surprisingly well even when heeled way over.

re dorades . . . . just fyi . . . . we started off with 4, almost immediately removed the front two and sealed them, then later used one of the remaining as the reflek chimney deck exit point, and finally had the remaining one plugged with a plastic bag stuffed in it about half the time.
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Old 16-06-2015, 21:48   #276
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Doesn't having a keel stepped mast kind of negate the whole leak proof idea of aluminum? It will be different having a wet bilge compared to the bone dry bilge you now have. I would think that might make a difference in the amount of ventilation required.
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Old 17-06-2015, 00:08   #277
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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re dorades . . . . just fyi . . . . we started off with 4, almost immediately removed the front two and sealed them, then later used one of the remaining as the reflek chimney deck exit point, and finally had the remaining one plugged with a plastic bag stuffed in it about half the time.
Thanks for this feedback. It reflects exactly what we have found on our current boat .

Dorades limit view on a pilothouse boat, clutter up the deck, and worst of all, can result in salt water entering the boat. This is one of those extras where we think the drawbacks will outweigh the benefits on this new boat, although this is a close call. It is by no means "essential" though, as assumed by many.

SWL
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Old 17-06-2015, 05:21   #278
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Doesn't having a keel stepped mast kind of negate the whole leak proof idea of aluminum? It will be different having a wet bilge compared to the bone dry bilge you now have. I would think that might make a difference in the amount of ventilation required.
Good observation . . . . If it is keel stepped, they need to make sure there is a deck level dam and drains inside the mast. But in the worst case, it is 'only' (usually) fresh (rain) water, if the deck partners are designed well. Our partners were an aluminum tube/sleeve, formed to match the shape of the mast tube with 6mm clearance all around (wider at the top and tapered top to bottom to the 6mm), and 150mm deep, and then has a spartite pulg on the mast to exactly fill the 6mm gap. That was both 100% leakproof, but also perfect firm support, while allowing the mast to be removed and replaced with (too much) trouble.

One thing that surprised me is that we never had condensation on our mast. Some other cold weather boats wrapped their mast in foam in the cabin. We never did and it never caused any sort of problem . . . . now sure why.

Has it been discussed yet . . . . what hull insulation you are using - sprayed in urethane foam (which we used on Hawk), or stick on foam rubber (http://www.armacell.us/home/ - is what I have used on a couple superyachts and dashew used on his power boat - yes they sell in Europe also)?
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Old 17-06-2015, 06:25   #279
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Good observation . . . . If it is keel stepped, they need to make sure there is a deck level dam and drains inside the mast. But in the worst case, it is 'only' (usually) fresh (rain) water, if the deck partners are designed well. Our partners were an aluminum tube/sleeve, formed to match the shape of the mast tube with 6mm clearance all around (wider at the top and tapered top to bottom to the 6mm), and 150mm deep, and then has a spartite pulg on the mast to exactly fill the 6mm gap. That was both 100% leakproof, but also perfect firm support, while allowing the mast to be removed and replaced with (too much) trouble.

One thing that surprised me is that we never had condensation on our mast. Some other cold weather boats wrapped their mast in foam in the cabin. We never did and it never caused any sort of problem . . . . now sure why.

Has it been discussed yet . . . . what hull insulation you are using - sprayed in urethane foam (which we used on Hawk), or stick on foam rubber (Armacell: Armacell North America - is what I have used on a couple superyachts and dashew used on his power boat - yes they sell in Europe also)?
I was surprised by the amount of water that comes in through my keel stepped mast when kept on the hard in through the hurricane season. Quite a few gallons. The hull to mast join is pretty waterproof, but there are about 8 halyard holes and maybe some imperfect sealing on the top of the mast. I suppose that is where the water gets in. With horizontal driving rain it is hard to make watertight.
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:47   #280
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Has it been discussed yet . . . . what hull insulation you are using - sprayed in urethane foam (which we used on Hawk), or stick on foam rubber (Armacell: Armacell North America - is what I have used on a couple superyachts and dashew used on his power boat - yes they sell in Europe also)?
Insulation will be 75 mm spray on foam, both for deck and hull above waterline.

This is what we have on our current boat and we have found it to be brilliant. The boat stays cooler in summer and warmer in winter and we get no condensation other than around the hatch frames, even in the worst conditions.

In addition, it provides great sound insulation and reducing noise in rough conditions really helps the off watch person to grab some sleep.

Having been very happy with this we are keen to duplicate it, although there are pros and cons with both systems of insulation.

SWL
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Old 17-06-2015, 12:01   #281
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Doesn't having a keel stepped mast kind of negate the whole leak proof idea of aluminum? It will be different having a wet bilge compared to the bone dry bilge you now have. I would think that might make a difference in the amount of ventilation required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Good observation . . . . If it is keel stepped, they need to make sure there is a deck level dam and drains inside the mast. But in the worst case, it is 'only' (usually) fresh (rain) water, if the deck partners are designed well.
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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I was surprised by the amount of water that comes in through my keel stepped mast when kept on the hard in through the hurricane season. Quite a few gallons.

This is great information. Deck vs keel stepped mast is another tough decision. I have never owned a boat with a keel stepped mast so this sort of feedback is invaluable.

SWL and I have been sailing for a long time. Our plan was to retire and have our dream boat custom built so we have been thinking about these details for many years, although we have only relatively recently again contemplated a new boat build.

My original preference, before our current boat, was for a keel stepped mast. When I found our boat for sale second hand it fitted nearly all our requirements, but had a deck stepped mast.

However, I have found the completely dry bilges fantastic. Our current boat has a very thick mast section and standing rigging and I wonder if this, combined with a deck stepped mast, is not the ideal option especially for an aluminium boat where the dry bilge removes the problem of any dissimilar metal interaction with anything dropped in the bilge.

K&M have built all the Bestevaers with keel stepped masts. I think there is benefit in duplicating systems that K&M has experience with, so my preference is to do so.

But we would love more feedback from other owners with a keel stepped mast. The Bestevaers have a tray around the mast step with a very deep, narrow bilge sump just behind this. I would hope that any water would be confined to these areas.
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Old 17-06-2015, 12:55   #282
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This is great information. Deck vs keel stepped mast is another tough decision. I have never owned a boat with a keel stepped mast so this sort of feedback is invaluable.

SWL and I have been sailing for a long time. Our plan was to retire and have our dream boat custom built so we have been thinking about these details for many years, although we have only relatively recently again contemplated a new boat build.

My original preference, before our current boat, was for a keel stepped mast. When I found our boat for sale second hand it fitted nearly all our requirements, but had a deck stepped mast.

However, I have found the completely dry bilges fantastic. Our current boat has a very thick mast section and standing rigging and I wonder if this, combined with a deck stepped mast, is not the ideal option especially for an aluminium boat where the dry bilge removes the problem of any dissimilar metal interaction with anything dropped in the bilge.

K&M have built all the Bestevaers with keel stepped masts. I think there is benefit in duplicating systems that K&M has experience with, so my preference is to do so.

But we would love more feedback from other owners with a keel stepped mast. The Bestevaers have a tray around the mast step with a very deep, narrow bilge sump just behind this. I would hope that any water would be confined to these areas.
Another data point to support what you've already heard -- I get tons of rainwater down my keel stepped mast. It means no such thing as dry bilges on my boat.

I guess you would have to talk to engineer to really understand, but my non-engineer hunch is that there isn't much advantage to a keel stepped mast in a sturdily built metal boat. Would be fairly trivial to support the compression loads, and do you need the bending resistance of just the mast stub stuck in the deck? I don't think it's going to hold the mast up if your forestay goes, right? So why bother?
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Old 17-06-2015, 15:06   #283
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

We, too, get rainwater down our mast: there is a small dam, with a drain to the [isolated] shower bilge, which has its own bilge pump. We sponge the remainder out before we go offshore as it can splash out a bit and make the sole slippery if the motion is excessive.

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Old 17-06-2015, 16:29   #284
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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guess you would have to talk to engineer to really understand, but my non-engineer hunch is that there isn't much advantage to a keel stepped mast in a sturdily built metal boat. Would be fairly trivial to support the compression loads, and do you need the bending resistance of just the mast stub stuck in the deck? I don't think it's going to hold the mast up if your forestay goes, right? So why bother?
I believe that if you do speak to an engineer you will find that there are indeed advantages to keel stepping vs deck stepping. The bottom line is that one can use a lighter mast section with a keel step, and the reduction in weight aloft is useful.

And yes, in at least one case (ours) it will support the mast when the forestay fails. The PO (and builder) had the rigging screw at the base of the forestay fail twice, once under gale force winds in the Aleutians, and in both cases the mast stood long enough to get a halyard in place to replace the missing stay. It is also useful when slipping the boat in a travel lift, for one can remove the forestay to ease the positioning of the boat without worrying about the mast falling!

To amplify a bit on what Ann wrote re water down the mast: Our shower sump is small and isolated from the rest of the bilge. If you can tolerate shower water, surely a small amount of clean, non-soapy rainwater will be no problem in an alloy boat. A small bilge pump with a float switch bails it out if rainwater accumulates.

Cheers,

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Old 17-06-2015, 17:37   #285
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

This is probably not applicable to the Bestevaer (because it as a "normal" mast) but here is what I came up with to solve the mast penetration problem.

Two piece mast with scarf joint connection (tabernacle). Lower section welded at the partners for waterproofing. The only possible way for water to enter is through the 3 (fore and aft oriented) tabernacle bolts. Might get a few drips if the boat is inverted. The fourth (athwart-ship) bolt is the hinge and does not penetrate the mast.

The mast will stand without rigging. In-fact, The boat could probably be sailed in very light air with the mast freestanding.

In the first picture, just behind the mast (on the cabin trunk), are four small tangs that are used to secure a canvas, open top line bag. The bag "hides" in line with the mast and therefore does not inhibit visibility form the pilothouse - much. This line Bag has been extremely useful on Panope as most sail handling chores are performed at the mast. Maybe not so much on the Bestevaer.

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