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Old 15-06-2015, 08:21   #241
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Do you have photos of the removable security bars? I've been trying to figure out a better solution than the cables we used on our last boat.

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Old 15-06-2015, 11:26   #242
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Canting keel is probably a better option. Quite a few years ago I was working for a boatbuilder that built water ballast tanks into a yacht specifically designed for a round Australia race. Quite a nice cruiser racer 'Zulu chief'. I always liked the design, set up for short handed sailing, fast, a decent pilot house, from the drawing board of Kel Steinman. I think the ballast tanks had pretty much the same effect as sitting a fully crewed crew on the rails. A slight improvement on performance but negligible effect on heel. The vendee globe yachts seem to have an amazing amount of control of heel with their canting keels.
...
Canting keels are great but complicated and very expensive. A boat having a canting keel does not mean that he is not made to sail better at considerable angles of heel. That depends mostly of hull type design and if the boat is designed to sail more on hull form stability (like a cat or an Open 60) or if it is depending mostly on the RM created by the keel to sail (narrow boat).

Regarding water ballast they are way more effective on very beamy boat and if correctly dimensioned their effect can be huge.

Here you have a lot of information on the effect of the water ballast on a Cigale 16, with lots of graphics from VPP predictions:

Cicada 16 metres anglais

You can see that the ballast limits heeling to 10, increases speed in about 10% and most of all makes for a much stiffer boat with a much bigger stability, one that needs to reef much later, with stronger wind.

Of course they are only suitable for voyage/Ocean boats, that will stay on the same tack for many hours.
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Old 15-06-2015, 11:31   #243
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post


K&M build in aluminium not only pleasure yachts like ours, but also coast guard rescue boats. These latter boats typically have 'no nonsense' solutions to problems that occur in a tough work environment.

The hatches used on these boats are welded aluminium with glass not plastic ports. The dogs are stainless steel handles (four on each hatch) that together with the sturdy hatch frame mean the lid can be clamped down with much more force. These would look out of place on many yachts, but of course they match the finish of the rest of the Bestevaers.

We have requested these instead of standard hatches. They will be raised to reduce direct water pressure. There will be some loops welded adjacent to the hatches for attaching wind scoops, rain guards and Sunbrella covers.

It might seem silly to put so much effort into these details, but a non leaking boat is critical to comfort.

K&M have also incorporated some removable security bars on some of their hatches and these will also be used. Most boats are incredibly easy to break into and with some thought this can be easily avoided.
Fabulous!!!
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Old 15-06-2015, 13:18   #244
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Nolex I'm curious about the bow. The first pic you posted shows what I would have thought to be deformed/stove in/poorly built bows. I know some designs have very fine bows to slice through the water (or containers) that fair quickly into larger frames in a complex concave curve then to a traditional convex curve, but the image appears to show some convex forward, then none and then a more normal fairing into the hull. Is it a design feature, construction flaw or trick of the light in the photo? I can imagine 10mm aluminium would offer a few challenges to the builders there.
P.S. is it alyoumineeyum or aloominum? Maybe a subject for another thread
A hull shape optimised to survive in ice is unlikely to have pretty concave curves. Wave piercing is not a common design characteristic for icebreakers i suspect.

The ideal shape to survive ice loads, from both freezing and impact is a sphere.

Therefore the resultant hull shape will likely be what you see in the pics.

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Old 15-06-2015, 13:25   #245
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Do you have photos of the removable security bars? I've been trying to figure out a better solution than the cables we used on our last boat.

Matt
This is a photo of one of the bars on one of the very early Bestevaer's, but I think this one was a fixed bar on one of the smaller hatches:




Here are the sockets for two removable bars on the same boat:



These are on commercial (Goiot) hatches. Our hatches will be quite different, but I think a similar idea can be incorporated. Hatch security makes the boat less vulnerable to theft. It also allows the hatch to left open for ventilation while providing some personal security in suspect areas.

These measures are not foolproof. A determined thief could no doubt overcome these obstacles with time. However, most boats have negligible security so in making it more difficult, the idea is the bad guys will pick an easier target.

These measures are easy to incorporate at the build stage, but are not easy to retrofit. Why don't more boat builders do this sort of thing? The cost is small.

BTW notice the recess with small bolt holes to incorporate a simple lower perspex double glazing layer to reduce condensation and heat loss in very cold climates.
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Old 15-06-2015, 13:33   #246
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Canting keels are great but complicated and very expensive. A boat having a canting keel does not mean that he is not made to sail better at considerable angles of heel. That depends mostly of hull type design and if the boat is designed to sail more on hull form stability (like a cat or an Open 60) or if it is depending mostly on the RM created by the keel to sail (narrow boat).

Regarding water ballast they are way more effective on very beamy boat and if correctly dimensioned their effect can be huge.

Here you have a lot of information on the effect of the water ballast on a Cigale 16, with lots of graphics from VPP predictions:

Cicada 16 metres anglais

You can see that the ballast limits heeling to 10, increases speed in about 10% and most of all makes for a much stiffer boat with a much bigger stability, one that needs to reef much later, with stronger wind.

Of course they are only suitable for voyage/Ocean boats, that will stay on the same tack for many hours.
I asked the builder of the Bestevaer when I spoke to him at a boat show some years ago about the effect of water ballast on his boats. From my hazy recollection the figure he quoted was up to 4 degrees less heel and a similar number in % of speed increase. Useful, but worth the disadvantages? I think SWL and Noelex don't think so.
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Old 15-06-2015, 13:36   #247
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This is a photo of one of the bars on one of the very early Bestevaer's, but I think this one was a fixed bar on one of the smaller hatches:




Here are the sockets for two removable bars:



These are on commercial (Goiot) hatches. Our hatches will be quite different, but I think a similar idea can be incorporated. Hatch security makes the boat less vulnerable to theft. It also allows the hatch to left open for ventilation while providing some personal security in suspect areas.

These measures are not foolproof. A determined thief could no doubt overcome these obstacles with time. However, most boats have negligible security so in making it more difficult, the idea is the bad guys will pick an easier target.

These measures are easy to incorporate at the build stage, but are not easy to retrofit. Why don't more boat builders do this sort of thing? The cost is small.

BTW notice the recess to incorporate a perspex cover to reduce condensation and heat loss in very cold climates.
They don't do it because the cost is small....the key word cost! The same reason they use fender washers under deck cleats and brass thru hull(skin fittings)
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Old 15-06-2015, 15:05   #248
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

The perspex inserts to reduce condensation and heat loss are brilliant! Lovely idea.

I'm still not understanding how these hatches will allow good ventilation underway when it's blowy....... Please explain.

Ann
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Old 15-06-2015, 17:19   #249
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I asked the builder of the Bestevaer when I spoke to him at a boat show some years ago about the effect of water ballast on his boats. From my hazy recollection the figure he quoted was up to 4 degrees less heel and a similar number in % of speed increase. Useful, but worth the disadvantages? I think SWL and Noelex don't think so.
4 degrees of heel is a lot. If it takes you from 30 degrees on a hard beat, to 26 degrees, that is a hell of a difference. I don't know about those boats, but on my boat that would be the difference in 10 or more degrees of rudder, and 4 or 5 degrees. That's not just speed, but control, which you gain.
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Old 15-06-2015, 17:21   #250
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
The perspex inserts to reduce condensation and heat loss are brilliant! Lovely idea.

I'm still not understanding how these hatches will allow good ventilation underway when it's blowy....... Please explain.

Ann
Those hatches are just beautiful. I want them!

Would you worry about breaking the glass from a falling block or flaying shackle? I guess tempered glass would be no less strong than the plastic in the ubiquitous Lewmar plastic hatches, thought, would it?
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Old 15-06-2015, 17:33   #251
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

You lucky bugger, I have so many ideas I would love to incorporate in a new build. I saw Africa in SXM a couple of years ago, best damn boat out there!

Just looking at the chain locker, I would specify a PVC one not Ally, its too loud, and dissimilar metals etc...
How abut a lub oil storage tank in the skeg? with a fill pipe on deck and plumbed to a pump for oil changes...Oh...the list goes on...

Good Luck
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Old 15-06-2015, 19:21   #252
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Bestevaer 49ST

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I have sworn to myself that I won't have another boat with davits.

Davits? Don't confuse a hoist bar system with davits... they are opposites. I have only seen one way to improve on this and that is a flat aft deck to set a dinghy or two onto with a crane. Dashew did that but gave up his cockpit for it

Here is the dinghy in the water with hoist bar deployed:

And seconds later it is a full two meters above the water:
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Old 16-06-2015, 07:10   #253
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
The perspex inserts to reduce condensation and heat loss are brilliant! Lovely idea.

I'm still not understanding how these hatches will allow good ventilation underway when it's blowy....... Please explain.
Ann
Ann, thanks for your concern about ventilation. I agree it is a very underrated area. Ventilation not only when sailing, but at anchor and when storing the boat needs to be considered.

At Anchor:
Ventilation at anchor is the most important. On hot nights it is critical for comfort to get enough airflow over the sleeping area. This requires big, well placed hatches with cross ventilation.

Unfortunately, few boats can leave these hatches open in even light rain. There are some features on this new boat that will help enable this:

The hatches will be on 50mm plinth. Standing water on the deck has to get over this level to enter the hatch.

There will be welded loops around the hatch for a Sunbrella wind scoop/rain guard/spray guard.

Here are some photos showing examples of Sunbrella awnings that boat owners have constructed, but it is difficult to fabricate these for conventional boat hatches. With the welded attachment points around our hatches and raised plinth we will be able to make something that is smaller and neater, as well as a lot more water and wind proof than these examples that mostly rely on the lifelines for the attachment points. SWL is great with canvas work so she can make these.







We could also use something similar for all the other hatches, but the pilot house hatches (two 500x500) will be covered by the boom tent at anchor, which will protect them from rain unless the wind is strong.

I am confident airflow at anchor particularly when raining will be much better than most boats.

Sailing:
When sailing I am not convinced that the small token dorades often fitted do much, but we are making some conscious compromises leaving off proper large sized dorades. Anyone who has sailed knows the danger of leaving hatches open only to have a larger than normal wave soak the interior. It is mistake you only make once .

The pilot house washboards slide up and down in their own recess. They can be raised and left in any position. They are protected by a large aluminium overhang. That creates a mini doghouse. Primarily this provides a place to shelter outside from spray and wind, but it also protects the pilothouse from rain/spray. With the washboards partially raised there is ventilation that is unlikely to get any water entry. I think this will provide reasonable ventilation offshore, especially as the pilot house will be the most used area of the boat when sailing.

This photo of a Bestevaer 49 under construction shows the the size of the overhang at the rear of the pilothouse:



The high plinth around the hatches will make them a bit more practical to open in mild conditions, particularly the pilot house hatches which are a long way above the waterline. A Sunbrella spray shield would help even further.

When the boat is stored/unattended:
There will be two sliding self stowing washboards. The first will have a security grill, fly screen and a very strong lock. The second will be conventional clear Lexan. They can be used individually or together.

When leaving the boat for extended periods at a marina or on the hard, it will be possible to lock the security grill closed, but leave a small air gap at the top of the plastic washboard. The aluminium doghouse roof should ensure that no rain gets in.


With the absence of leaks and thick insulation, aluminium boats stay very dry. This, coupled with all the above should be enough to keep the boat fresh. I think dorades will not be missed.
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Old 16-06-2015, 07:10   #254
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Was something like this what you had in mind for the stove:

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Really fabulous. I wish I had space for something like that on my boat.
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Old 16-06-2015, 07:29   #255
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Those types of heaters can work well at anchor but I've never had one that worked while underway. The forced air diesel heaters work well underway but use lots of juice at anchor. A friend of mine solved the problem by putting both on the boat. He used the forced air to get the boat warmed up quickly and then used the drip pot heater to keep it warm.
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