Bestevaer 49ST

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

Safety is reason enough for me.

At a guess a small 190kg generator will add a bit to your boat more than propane. Maybe 100kg. You could use the engine battery. The diesel stored will be very small. The switch panel is often built into the genset. Also to add is the exhaust, whcih has to be fitted with a well designed water separator/silencer.

I don't agree that propane cooking is at all reliable. There is also maintenance. I have had to replace all my hoses and valves, had a lot of work dealing with corroded tanks, had my cooker hose fray and break through, I have my burners corrode and regularly block up, all the spark starters have failed, I had my thermocouples break etc.

I think they've made up their mind, but I sure agree with this. +1000.

190kg gets you a Northern Lights 4.5kW true heavy duty 3 cylinder genset in the sound enclosure. Just add exhaust and Bob's your uncle. This unit is bulletproof, almost inaudible when running, extremely reliable, abundant power on demand any time, day or night.

My genset is started by its own battery, but this is overkill considering the engine start system is completely separate from house systems. I would start it from the house (not engine start) bank, with jumpers for using the engine start batt in an emergency. Everything in 24v if possible.

[estarzinger]

One comment I will make about custom/semi-custom boat building (from our own boats and my owner rep experiences) . . . . . Every "clever idea" is a risk. Owners buying custom/simicustom boats tend to have clever ideas, and quite honestly the majority do not live up to expectations. The boats that have been the biggest fails have been the most full of clever ideas which just did not work out as intended. There is essentially zero "engineering" in pleasure sail boats, and any idea that specific boat yard has not done successfully 3 times before is a risk. It's a bit sad, because clever ideas can be rewarding when they do work out. You have to decide if you want to be sure it will work, or if you want to try something and realize it might fail (even if it sounds simple/easy to do, it has a real possibility of fail if that specific yard has not already done it at least 3 times, and their work force has not turned over).

This observation applies completely to even the 'best" yards . . . I could cite numerous examples from the top "quality" custom yards.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Panope

Nnoelex, SWL. If you had to identify the most important attribute that this new boat has over your current vessel, what would that be?

Steve

Without doubt the pilothouse .

If we only cruised warm waters or only in season then this would be unnecessary.

We are on board permanently at anchor, summer and winter and when the weather is bad it would be fantastic to be able to be sitting and viewing it, instead of being down in the saloon, as cosy as it is. I love views .

The other usual reason for a pilothouse is sheltered passages, but we already have this. Our current boat has a raised navigation/galley area with about 300° views. It is set up with secondary chartplotter/radar display, autopilot controls, VHF, etc.

Compromises will unfortunately have to be made over what we have now - the two major ones are dinghy storage and the fantastic big centre cockpit that we live in for half the year under the shade of the boom tent. Both these will be missed, but we can't have it all.

The other appeal of this project is simply designing something entirely for our needs and watching it come to life, and of course the pleasure of "brand new" (we have had two architect designed houses built now and loved the whole process).

Gaining a view when the weather is bad (that could be achieved with an enclosed Sunbrella cockpit as many other boats have done) seems a frivolous reason for building, but this background info may help understand why we are doing this:

Since seeing yachts at anchor on our honeymoon several decades ago (lead to our first charter with both us with zero sailing experience) we dreamed of retiring early and sailing. Subsequently over years of both owning (mainly cruising) and crewing (mainly ocean racing) we gradually built up ideas for our "perfect" boat.

We planned to build, but unexpectedly found a boat second hand that matched our needs extremely well (custom built aluminium, built by an excellent yard, designed for a couple who would usually cruise alone and who wanted to circumnavigate in their retirement). The lower cost enabled us to go cruising several years earlier than expected.

When we first started full time cruising 8 years ago we were unsure if we would tire of it in time, but we have just become more and more hooked. Knowing now that we want to continue doing this until old age or illness incapacitates us, it seems silly to be hanging on to investments rather than enjoying a new boat in the years we have left.

So that is mainly why we are building.

SWL
PS I followed your rebuild with interest. Beautiful work! Hope your yacht is giving you a heap of pleasure.

[weavis]

I am pro Solar in a big way. I also like wind generators.

The cons.

Effectively, charging from solar can only be counted in sunlight hours. So in the UK, thats about 1 hour a day All power consumption requirements have to be divided IN REALITY by sunlight hours. Any extra usage ie bilge pumps start running, emergency maintenance with tools, extra guests on board, will seriously hurt the power reserve. A single battery failure will hurt the reserve, a multiple one is disaster.

A purpose built boat is a home. I see no reason on earth to deny oneself extra power for safety and necessity ever. Dont have to use it often but it is there. If you ever have a party and need to heat 30 gallons of water for the crawdad boil or the crabs......... plug it in, and let the water maker keep filling the tanks. Gas cooker took a dump? miles off shore? Plug in the electric plate and keep going. Solid fuel heater misbehaving? Plug in the fan blower and keep going. Need to do work on the boat and the obscure rip off marina wants to charge you expensive for electric? you got the picture.

My wind generator....... lovely thing. Only ever used it offshore as the noise was unbelievable.

LOL. a while back, guy next to me broke his shore power cable...... I just wired straight into my 2k genny and he was able to finish his task whist wife went off to get a new plug.

I have gas cooker and heating, I like them. I also has 3 large tanks, now forced by space to only carry 2. Cost of gas is now 33 sterling for 15kg.
It hurts.

I have made a note that if ever I build a boat, it will have solar and a generator. Living in England makes you look hard at realities when the sun dont shine.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by weavis

I am pro Solar in a big way. I also like wind generators.

The cons.

Effectively, charging from solar can only be counted in sunlight hours. So in the UK, thats about 1 hour a day All power consumption requirements have to be divided IN REALITY by sunlight hours. Any extra usage ie bilge pumps start running, emergency maintenance with tools, extra guests on board, will seriously hurt the power reserve. A single battery failure will hurt the reserve, a multiple one is disaster.

A purpose built boat is a home. I see no reason on earth to deny oneself extra power for safety and necessity ever. Dont have to use it often but it is there. If you ever have a party and need to heat 30 gallons of water for the crawdad boil or the crabs......... plug it in, and let the water maker keep filling the tanks. Gas cooker took a dump? miles off shore? Plug in the electric plate and keep going. Solid fuel heater misbehaving? Plug in the fan blower and keep going. Need to do work on the boat and the obscure rip off marina wants to charge you expensive for electric? you got the picture.

My wind generator....... lovely thing. Only ever used it offshore as the noise was unbelievable.

LOL. a while back, guy next to me broke his shore power cable...... I just wired straight into my 2k genny and he was able to finish his task whist wife went off to get a new plug.

I have gas cooker and heating, I like them. I also has 3 large tanks, now forced by space to only carry 2. Cost of gas is now 33 sterling for 15kg.
It hurts.

I have made a note that if ever I build a boat, it will have solar and a generator. Living in England makes you look hard at realities when the sun dont shine.

To be fair to SWL's and Noelex's power scheme, they already have a considerable diesel-powered generator in their jumbo school bus alternator on the main engine. So they will not be completely dependent on solar.

If solar mostly covers your needs, then this is a perfectly good backup.

From a systems point of view, this is not worse than what I have now, which is genset backed up by school bus alternator, and probably better since there is nothing to go wrong with solar. The downside is that you have to limit your power consumption. That prevents you from doing things with electrical power which require abundant power, and which eliminate other fuel sources, etc. --

Electric cooking
Electric heating
Aircon
Heating water

etc.

I'm actually not quite sure how their washing machine is going to work on solar -- requires a lot of power even without electric drying.

Solar is fabulous -- who could not be a fan of it. But like everything it has certain limitations and drawbacks.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by weavis

I have this theory that living on a boat should involve as little temporary fittings as possible.

A hard bimini and fitted with solar panels is what I would be looking at. You may find enough space to do away with the Arch depending on how much power you require from the panels.

A Hard bimini keep you cool, warm and sheltered at all times. It extends the living space BIG timey.

The solar arch will in effect be a hard permanent bimini. Anything larger that is permanent will remove flexibility (needs at anchor and needs sailing conflict in many areas, so flexibility is nice).

Everyone is stating how horrid an arch with solar and davits will be. A permanent hard bimini with solar on top is essentially the same as this, but a bit further forward isn't it ? Hardly what I would call beautiful if aesthetics is the issue.

Building a permanent bimini instead of an arch with solar will leave the issue of dinghy storage unresolved.
Deck storage limits views and is a pain when it come to launching and retrieval.
From experience, I know a hard bottom dinghy is essential in coral areas, so an inflatable is a poor option for this vital bit of equipment.
On a boat this size rear storage in a "garage" is not a possibility. We don't want to be going bigger and essentially starting from scratch with design, we love most of the Bestevaer 49 as it is.

So what do we do with the dinghy? The whole picture needs to addressed.

We have agonised over all this. An arch accommodating solar (will essentially act as a bimini at the rear) and dinghy just seems the best practical solution.

Originally Posted by poiu

The awning will be fine so long as it extends a bit further towards the lifelines. There will be a lot of solar gain from the deckhouse windows and as you rightly say, blinds will not be enough. I would personally prefer to externally shade the windows and to have a larger bimini. You could also make the awning wider, out and down to the top of the lifelines. You could still extend it forwards too.

If you shade the windows only you could fit bolt rope tracks above them or small rings and make mini awnings to clip onto the lifeline with a clip on the end of a bungee cord. This is what I do. The deckhouse roof gets the sun, but little heat gets through on my boat. It is made from white gel coated fibreglass with no insulation, just the headlining.

We will have a long handrail on the pilothouse roof on each side that will provide good attachment for mini awnings for side windows (the handrail is standard on most if not all of the Bestevaers). We have requested a few loops at the front for the same reason. I will be kept busy sewing during the latter stages of the build.

Originally Posted by poiu

I would consider making the bimini and awning "double glazed". i.e. With a second separated layer, ideally coated with IR reflective film. About 10 to 15% I think of solar radiation gets through sunbrella and that should stop it.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will think about what can be done. Solar protection for the windows will be vital for a good chunk of the year.

SWL

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To be fair to SWL's and Noelex's power scheme, they already have a considerable diesel-powered generator in their jumbo school bus alternator on the main engine. So they will not be completely dependent on solar.

If solar mostly covers your needs, then this is a perfectly good backup.

From a systems point of view, this is not worse than what I have now, which is genset backed up by school bus alternator, and probably better since there is nothing to go wrong with solar. The downside is that you have to limit your power consumption. That prevents you from doing things with electrical power which require abundant power, and which eliminate other fuel sources, etc. --

Electric cooking
Electric heating
Aircon
Heating water

etc.

I'm actually not quite sure how their washing machine is going to work on solar -- requires a lot of power even without electric drying.

Solar is fabulous -- who could not be a fan of it. But like everything it has certain limitations and drawbacks.

I didnt go there regarding the washing machine or drying

However, if the primary reason for an arch is to put solar panels on to prevent shadow, Im not sure it will work as well as expected. Sail shadow screws with everything depending on position of sun and heading.Positioning of panels is entirely dependent on available space-and therefore to some extent, is a pain. Be nice to know the area of the coach house roof available for solar panels, but this will be negated if a cover is to be used for a shade........ it also means turning the boat around if the shadow hits the arch..... but then my panels are a little old so perhaps the newer ones are not so dependent on direct light.

I still think the main area of concern is the lack of another hull.

[weavis]

yes....... the dinghy is one to be resolved.
Thus far I have no answers.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Everyone is stating how horrid an arch with solar and davits will be. A permanent hard bimini with solar on top is essentially the same as this, but a bit further forward isn't it ? Hardly what I would call beautiful if aesthetics is the issue.

SWL

Au Contraire mon liebchen! (multi lingual-in one sentence!)

I dont think it will look horrible. Im wondering if its necessary.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

I don't agree that propane cooking is at all reliable. There is also maintenance. I have had to replace all my hoses and valves, had a lot of work dealing with corroded tanks, had my cooker hose fray and break through, I have my burners corrode and regularly block up, all the spark starters have failed, I had my thermocouples break etc.

I agree with this, too. My gas system has been a lot of trouble -- some failure at least once a year.

The good thing is that you can repair the gas system yourself, and it's not a great expense to keep practically the whole system in spares on board.

Far more trouble, although easier and cheaper to repair, than my generator.

In six years and 1000 hours, I have had only one problem with my Kohler heavy duty generator -- a heat exchanger which went bad because I didn't know (stupid, stupid) that it had an anode (unlike the main engine).

Other than that, not the slightest problem, and all the maintenance is done together with the main engine, so you hardly notice it. Oil changes, fuel filters, impellers. I've never called in a pro to do anything to it.

There are few devices on my boat which have been that reliable.


Another thing about complexity of systems on a cruising boat, and KISS. Doing without means you never have to fix it. Very true. But a world cruising boat with reasonable comfort will never be so simple that you never need to fix it. And the difference between 20 systems needing maintenance and occasional repair and 18 system doesn't change the weather.

From a systems point of view, I think rather:

1. When you have a choice of multiple power or fuel sources, consolidate these as much as possible and eliminate diversity of types, so that you can concentrate on making the single (or few) power or fuel sources as robust and redundant as possible. What that will mean for my future boat is that I will run everything possible off AC power, and concentrate resources on making AC power supply as robust and failsafe as possible. Eliminate gas, and if possible, petrol. Harmonize voltage in DC systems (I now have both 12v and 24v which means for example that I can't jump my engine from the house bank -- that's wrong from a systems point of view). Propane is very poor from a systems point of view -- a whole different fuel source, requiring elaborate infrastructure to store and handle it, creating significant safety risks, which is only used for one purpose.

2. In order not to suffer ruined cruises from systems failure, the answer is not to reduce say 20 systems to 18, which is only a cosmetic improvement, but rather to make those 20 systems as robust as possible, using quality gear, proper design, and high quality installations with excellent accessibility and repairability. With redundancy wherever appropriate. THEN, learn ahead of time all of the maintenance and repair routines which you can imagine needing, and be prepared to do them. Have all of the tools, parts, manuals and spare materials on board to do everything you can anticipate.

3. The role of spare parts cannot be overemphasized, I think. The difference between a failure of something being a mild PITA and something which ruins a cruise with weeks of being stuck somewhere waiting for DHL, is having the parts on hand. Therefore, an irrationally large looking parts inventory -- which will include many parts, thousands of dollars worth, which there is little risk you will ever need -- is actually an investment in trouble free and uninterrupted cruising. Something like insurance. Building a new boat, I would spend a lot of thought on really excellent spares storage (and workshop), highly organized, accessible, dry. Parts for 20 systems versus parts for 18 systems is not a critical difference. Once you have all the parts, tools, manuals, materials, and knowledge on board to keep a given system working, then you don't need to be afraid of it.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To be fair to SWL's and Noelex's power scheme, they already have a considerable diesel-powered generator in their jumbo school bus alternator on the main engine. So they will not be completely dependent on solar.

If solar mostly covers your needs, then this is a perfectly good backup.

From a systems point of view, this is not worse than what I have now, which is genset backed up by school bus alternator, and probably better since there is nothing to go wrong with solar. The downside is that you have to limit your power consumption. That prevents you from doing things with electrical power which require abundant power, and which eliminate other fuel sources, etc. --

Electric cooking
Electric heating
Aircon
Heating water

etc.

I'm actually not quite sure how their washing machine is going to work on solar -- requires a lot of power even without electric drying.

Solar is fabulous -- who could not be a fan of it. But like everything it has certain limitations and drawbacks.

One thing I should explain is that at the moment we have an inbuilt diesel DC generator and it is simply not required. It is just run a minimum time purely to keep it healthy.

Dockhead you are very correct - we will have back up on the new boat via the engine alternator. Also, if problems occur with the super reliable solar system, Noelex has the skills to repair or jury rig the system.

Until recently solar power was used on boats as a supplement rather than a primary source of power. With the availability of large cheap solar panels, this has changed. Our current solar system provides 99% of our electricity. We dislike motoring and do very few engine hours (our engine was replaced 6 years ago and with using the boat well over 300 days a year during this time, the new engine has only accumulated only just over 400 hours).

Having lived on this solar power for so long very happliy, we are confident that a new system of over double the wattage will more than fulfil all our needs (washing machine using a cold wash included).

We truly don't want to be relying on a generator or engine for our primary source of power for vital functions of watermaker, cooking, heating.

Dockhead, your power needs are very different to ours. A generator suits them well (and as one is being used, it is then appropriate to convert all sorts of systems to run off this). It is simply unnecessary for our needs. It is not a case of one system being universally superior. Solar suits us perfectly.

SWL

[noelex 77]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Originally Posted by poiu

I think all the advantages are there regardless of system voltage. I have a 24v system and struggled with voltage drop for the bowthruster with my lead batteries unless they were full, but the advantages go far further than voltage drop if that is what you are referring to.

Most voltage drop problems are wiring rather than battery related. Lithium batteries have less voltage sag than lead acid with high loads and low SOC. This is an advantage with high draw appliances, but there will be few such devices on this boat. Solar will normally be directly providing a lot of the washing machine power.

With 24V the balance problems with lithium cells in series increases. The high charge acceptance of lithium is a great benefit for a generator based system, but much less so where solar is the primary charge source.

I am still tempted by lithium, but I think it is sensible to wait while others do the development work. I would also like a clearer picture of the lifespan of lithium. Personally I think many estimations here may be optimistic, but time will tell. I have no doubt that the future of boat batteries is lithium, but the conversion from lead acid in the future would not be difficult for someone like me who enjoys boat electrical work.

Originally Posted by poiu

I thought it was more to make sure the radar could see the starboard side unobstructed, which is where most stand on traffic will be seen.

Yes, good point, but the radar scanner will be mast mounted to avoid shading the solar array, so we don't have to pick sides .

Originally Posted by poiu

I think I'd also look at a modern high efficiency rated domestic 240v fridge/freezer. The most efficient use extremely little power now. About 0.8 amp equivalent at 24v for quite a big unit from Bosch. That's what I would get on a new boat.

Well said. More boats should consider using these units. Traditional domestic fridges are very hard on power consumption, but there are some new models that are very energy efficient, as you have pointed out. Some even have vacuum panels and with more advanced compressors the overall system is close or better than a good traditional boat fridge, although with front opening the number of times the fridge is opened will have an effect.

Like the "car fridge" approach, these have the advantage they can be replaced as a self contained unit if they fail. This may involve some cabinet work if the same sized unit is not available. A car fridge will live out of sight under a bench so can be easily swapped for a different model should the original model not be available.

The biggest unknown is how domestic fridges will cope with vibration and operating at an angle of heel. The good car fridges are built for 4WD application and I suspect they find boat life easier than their designed role .

Originally Posted by poiu

I think the boat will be uncomfortable on passage without them. How will you ventilate the boat then?

Also, as you are not having hull ports how will you vent the cabin without getting wet from rain through an open hatch?

Leaving off dorades is a compromise. It helps with forward visibility from the pilot house. Also the deck space saving can be utilised by larger hatches, which helps the airflow at anchor. Some of these deck hatches will be usable (at anchor) even in heavy rain.

Many dorades used on production boats are just a token effort, with not much airflow and not waterproof with green water over the deck. Their main purpose seems to be to catch sheets . If you are going to install dorades they need to be large to function well.

I think the dorades will be most missed if our boat is left unused for long periods, but this configuration will be rare.

The welded construction and fittings used on an aluminium boat means no deck leaks. Together with thick insulation, less ventilation is required to control condensation and the oppressive humid internal environment that can sometimes develop on boats sailing offshore is less likely to occur. As an experiment, we have tried temporarily blocking up the dorades in our current boat, and really not missed them.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.........Concerning prop size: Great care should be taken not to overprop the boat. This destroys engines.

If I were building a boat like this, I would look for a Hundested manually variable pitch prop, or at worst, a Brunton Autoprop. Variable pitch is pure gold for motor sailing or hard weather..........

Dockhead, Just to clarify, I was advocating larger diameter/area, not over-propping. Large gear reduction ratio is the key. Variable pitch is a nice feature but when it comes to maximizing low speed (boat speed) thrust, nothing beats a larger, slow turning propeller.

Consider the tug boats of 100 years ago. Many had less than 100 horse power yet they were able to create tremendous, ship pulling force because they had absolutely humongous, slow turning propellers. Many folks will quickly say that these old "house sized" engines somehow made "bigger horsepower" because of some sort magic in their high torque rating. The truth is that a modern, high revving engine will turn that giant old tugboat propeller just as well given a large enough gear reduction box - A.K.A - torque multiplier.

The standard for sailboat propeller sizing was set back when engines were tiny and only expected to be used for docking or windless conditions. Consequently, sailing performance dictated the undersized (diameter) props that most sailboats have. Now that folding/feathering props are common, the need for these small propellers as been reduced greatly.

I propose that for your need to occasionally bash into F7 or greater, that a larger slower turning fixed pitch propeller will give you far better performance than your smaller, controllable pitch prop . Naturally, a combination of both would be Ideal. Do you happen to know your propeller diameter and gear reduction ratio?

It may be that Noelex and SWL's cruising style is not the motor-bash type and will never need this kind of thrust that you and I find so important.

Steve

[Panope]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

............Leaving off dorades is a compromise. It helps with forward visibility from the pilot house. Also the deck space saving can be utilised by larger hatches, which helps the airflow at anchor. Some of these deck hatches will be usable (at anchor) even in heavy rain.

Many dorades used on production boats are more a token effort, with not much airflow and not waterproof with green water over the deck. Their main purpose seems to be to catch sheets . If you are going to install dorades they need to be large to function well.

I think the dorades will be most missed if our boat is left unused for long periods, but this configuration will be rare........

Noelex, I removed (and welded shut) Panope's dorades for the the same reasons you gave. I have not missed them. Boat stayed dry last winter spending 5 months on the hard.

I made no attempt to seal the sliding companion way hatch that I built (not planning offshore use). In fact, I left a good 2 cm gap around the perimeter and this serves as adequate ventilation when the boat is unattended.

Steve

[noelex 77]

Thanks for the feedback Steve.

I have enjoyed your thread. You have produced some beautiful aluminium work. I love all the small details .

I wish I had your skills.