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Old 12-06-2015, 08:33   #181
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
So why the removal of the round hull ports? They look awesome in person and add some needed light down below.

Matt
Yes they do look awesome, both inside and out. They are very robustly engineered in glass and stainless steel.

This is how they are incorporated into the hull. They look more like a porthole in a submersible than the flimsy structure that yacht designers often use:




This is how they look when finished:




However, our interior will be light filled anyway. The plan we have in mind opens up the pilot house area with a void over the front extending about a metre, which will let in lots of light down below from the pilot house windows. Some of the interior finish will be white, which helps spread the light. Finally aluminium boats benefit from an effort to reduce dissimilar metals as much as possible and a structure like this requires a lot of stainless bolts.


Read Beth and Evans' comments on port lights here:
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Leftoff.pdf

I will use another small quote from them because everyone who buys a cruising boat should study the whole document until they can recite it by heart:

"Through hullside ports. The Van de Stadt plan called for two portlights through each side of the hull in addition to a total of four portlights through the cabin trunk and seven opening hatches in the deck. By going with aluminum as a hull material and welding on as much deck hardware as possible, we hoped to achieve a leak proof boat. Every offshore sailor we’ve ever met with through hullside ports has experienced leaks, and we questioned the safety of a portlight which would be below waterline when we were heeled over"

We did waver slightly after seeing the construction used in the port lights. We progressed from zero ports to two then four then back to zero .
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:52   #182
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Personally I'd really want to ditch the boom tent and have a permanent fixed Bimini/solar installation/windscreen. Weavis you better edit the delta..at least add a roll bar!
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:55   #183
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Dashew always used hull ports with great success even on his aluminum sailboats.

Matt
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:36   #184
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Personally I'd really want to ditch the boom tent and have a permanent fixed Bimini/solar installation/windscreen.
My thoughts on this:
1. The solar panel area over the very rear will aready form a partial permanent bimini and I doubt we will need anything else while sailing. A Sunbrella bimini between the solar panels and pilothouse will be easy to rig otherwise.
2. Shading the pilothouse will be critical in keeping the boat cool in hot weather and I doubt very much that blinds will be enough.

Monte, I am not sure if you have seen the boom tent arrangement on our boat, but it is a clever design that we intend to reproduce. A track approx 5 m long is rivetted to each side of the boom. Two rectangular pieces of Sunbrella stiffened by one batten about 2/3 of the way down have luff tape along the long end that slide onto the tracks. This then rolls up on the boom and is secured by velcro (it can be left up sailing or removed for long passages). It is easily and quickly deployed by one person. An area of 3.4 x 5 metres of the deck is in shade when it is rolled out, with air flow underneath it.

On the new boat this will shade the entire pilothouse, salon and galley. From experience this will make a HUGE difference in comfort during summer.

SWL

Our current boom tent:
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:15   #185
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Very neat SWL. I don't have experience with boom tents except to see yachts arriving at anchorage and sometimes struggling to erect them or take them down when the wind comes up or before leaving to sail. I'm a bit lazy so if I can avoid having to set up things that can be a permanent fixture I would go that way, with the added benefit of rain and sun protection under sail. I guess there are some downsides to having a fixed Bimini such as seeing the sails, extra windage and looks so it's a personal choice which way to go.
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:25   #186
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Personally I'd really want to ditch the boom tent and have a permanent fixed Bimini/solar installation/windscreen. Weavis you better edit the delta..at least add a roll bar!


(But I say nothing........ each to their own)
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Old 12-06-2015, 15:28   #187
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Now, about this here now solar panel arch with davits.....

It will blend in better to the eye if you have the forward angle to the deck mimic the angle you choose for the pilot house. Plan a few extra cleats into it for visitors to tie up to.

This new boat will be the Best Ever Besteaever!

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Old 12-06-2015, 22:46   #188
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Now, about this here now solar panel arch with davits.....

It will blend in better to the eye if you have the forward angle to the deck mimic the angle you choose for the pilot house. Plan a few extra cleats into it for visitors to tie up to.

This new boat will be the Best Ever Besteaever!

Ann
Best Ever Besteaever! I love it!

Ann, my thoughts were to mimic the stern lines right next to it.

Unlike the pilothouse extension, here I am truly just doodling, as the whole thing needs to be well engineered structurally. The bracing etc required will affect looks dramatically and to a big extent form will follow function, but it is irresistible to play.

The dinghy will only be small (an AB hypalon with an alu bottom: 2.56x1.45 m) and I think it will help visually not having something huge dangling off the back.

Given the arch is a necessity for the solar we need, it would be so good if something pleasing to the eye could be designed.

There will be lots of tie up space . Visitors are always greeted joyously on board.

SWL
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Old 13-06-2015, 02:06   #189
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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^^ I am not at all an expert on this . . . but my feeling on engines in the high latitudes . . . . we had the 75hp . . . . and I will say that I think the wave situation can be more about prop area than HP. We could have used a bigger prop (had 20" could have used 24 or 26" in some situations)................

I'll second the recommendation for over-sizing propeller diameter/area.

Panope (15,000 lbs) went from 15 horsepower with a 14 inch diameter 2 blade prop to 40 horsepower with 18 inch diameter 3 blade. Even when running the new engine at 15 horsepower (matching the old engine's max power), the boat motors into wind a waves much much better than before. Naturally, the extra power is icing on the cake for bashing into stronger wind and chop.

-Panope is powered at 5.3 horsepower per ton. I am very happy with that and an 18" prop. (Panope is less than half the weight so may not be a good comparable).
-Hawk is powered at 5.0 horsepower per ton. Evans wished for (at times) a prop larger than his 20".
-Dockhead is powered at 4.5 horsepower per ton. He is unsatisfied (not sure of his prop size) and dreams of a HR64 with 300 horsepower or 8.3 horse power per ton!
-The Bestevaer 49 with 75 horsepower is 4.4 horsepower per ton.

Sounds like a 24", 3 blade feathering propeller would be just the ticket.

Steve
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Old 13-06-2015, 02:06   #190
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
My thoughts on this:
1. The solar panel area over the very rear will aready form a partial permanent bimini and I doubt we will need anything else while sailing. A Sunbrella bimini between the solar panels and pilothouse will be easy to rig otherwise.
2. Shading the pilothouse will be critical in keeping the boat cool in hot weather and I doubt very much that blinds will be enough.

Monte, I am not sure if you have seen the boom tent arrangement on our boat, but it is a clever design that we intend to reproduce. A track approx 5 m long is rivetted to each side of the boom. Two rectangular pieces of Sunbrella stiffened by one batten about 2/3 of the way down have luff tape along the long end that slide onto the tracks. This then rolls up on the boom and is secured by velcro (it can be left up sailing or removed for long passages). It is easily and quickly deployed by one person. An area of 3.4 x 5 metres of the deck is in shade when it is rolled out, with air flow underneath it.

On the new boat this will shade the entire pilothouse, salon and galley. From experience this will make a HUGE difference in comfort during summer.

SWL

Our current boom tent:
The awning will be fine so long as it extends a bit further towards the lifelines. There will be a lot of solar gain from the deckhouse windows and as you rightly say, blinds will not be enough. I would personally prefer to externally shade the windows and to have a larger bimini. You could also make the awning wider, out and down to the top of the lifelines. You could still extend it forwards too.

If you shade the windows only you could fit bolt rope tracks above them or small rings and make mini awnings to clip onto the lifeline with a clip on the end of a bungee cord. This is what I do. The deckhouse roof gets the sun, but little heat gets through on my boat. It is made from white gel coated fibreglass with no insulation, just the headlining.

I would consider making the bimini and awning "double glazed". i.e. With a second separated layer, ideally coated with IR reflective film. About 10 to 15% I think of solar radiation gets through sunbrella and that should stop it. Better still make it permanent out of foam cored fibreglass.

Selecting the right shade of white paint for the deckhouse will make a surprisingly big difference. There is only one shade that works really well. Awlgrip will tell you which it is.

A bigger bimini makes more room for solar too. Power even more luxuries. Ice maker? Bean to cup machine? Tumble drier?
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Old 13-06-2015, 02:12   #191
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I have this theory that living on a boat should involve as little temporary fittings as possible.

A hard bimini and fitted with solar panels is what I would be looking at. You may find enough space to do away with the Arch depending on how much power you require from the panels.

A Hard bimini keep you cool, warm and sheltered at all times. It extends the living space BIG timey.
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Old 13-06-2015, 02:48   #192
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Nnoelex, SWL. If you had to identify the most important attribute that this new boat has over your current vessel, what would that be?

Steve
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Old 13-06-2015, 04:13   #193
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Panope View Post
I'll second the recommendation for over-sizing propeller diameter/area.

Panope (15,000 lbs) went from 15 horsepower with a 14 inch diameter 2 blade prop to 40 horsepower with 18 inch diameter 3 blade. Even when running the new engine at 15 horsepower (matching the old engine's max power), the boat motors into wind a waves much much better than before. Naturally, the extra power is icing on the cake for bashing into stronger wind and chop.

-Panope is powered at 5.3 horsepower per ton. I am very happy with that and an 18" prop. (Panope is less than half the weight so may not be a good comparable).
-Hawk is powered at 5.0 horsepower per ton. Evans wished for (at times) a prop larger than his 20".
-Dockhead is powered at 4.5 horsepower per ton. He is unsatisfied (not sure of his prop size) and dreams of a HR64 with 300 horsepower or 8.3 horse power per ton!
-The Bestevaer 49 with 75 horsepower is 4.4 horsepower per ton.

Sounds like a 24", 3 blade feathering propeller would be just the ticket.

Steve
On light ship displacement I have 5.0 horsepower per metric ton; 5.5 per English ton. This is absolutely plenty 99% of the time, all the more with a variable pitch prop (Autoprop) which pitches down when load is high, giving more "leverage" and using available power more efficiently. Out of 3800 RPM rev range, usual cruising speed is only 1800, less often 2000, and 2500 is usually enough when a moderate amount of power is needed.

So judging by my case, 5.0 hp per ton light ship is really plenty for most people.

But "most people" don't spend a lot of time powering against hard weather. The demand for power in that case goes up exponentially, and it could even be a matter of life and death. Of course, far more power is available from the sails, than from the engine, so Plan "A" will always be to sail against hard weather, or motor sail (something I did a lot of last year struggling upwind for 1500 miles with old sails), but there are cases (no room to tack; harbor entrance; rig problem; etc.) where only power will do.

Concerning prop size: Great care should be taken not to overprop the boat. This destroys engines.

If I were building a boat like this, I would look for a Hundested manually variable pitch prop, or at worst, a Brunton Autoprop. Variable pitch is pure gold for motor sailing or hard weather. Hundested is the dog's danglies for this and the perfect prop for an expedition-type boat, but has a couple of drawbacks: (a) from 150 horsepower; they don't make small ones; (b) requires an extra control cable, mechanism, lever at the helm; (c) cost.

From the Hundested site:

The Advantages of Controllable Pitch Propellers

A fixed propeller, designed for maximum speed, cannot give maximum power at low speed, while a fixed propeller designed for power, cannot achieve maximum speed.

With a controllable pitch propeller it is always possible to obtain full utilization of the engine, irrespective of the purpose of the vessel.

Maximum horsepower can be taken from the engine – without overloading – by changing the pitch.

Even if the engine drives a winch or a shaft generator, the number of revolutions can be kept constant – and the speed of the vessel can then be regulated by means of the propeller pitch.

At speeds lower than the maximum speed the engine’s fuel consumption can be reduced considerably by increasing the pitch and lowering the number of revolutions while maintaining the required speed. In this way the loading of the engine and the total efficiency of the unit is increased.

When using sail and engine power at the same time the correct pitch can always be obtained so that wind and engine together are utilized in the best possible way.

Prompt and inexpensive replacement of individual blades in case of damage to the propeller.

Engine idle speed on a fixed pitch propeller vessel often propels the vessel too fast for docking manoeuvres whereas a CP propeller offers superior low speed vessel control.



From my own experience: From more than 20 years of using Brunton Autoprops on two different boats, I would never ever go back to a fixed pitched prop on a sailing vessel. It is a revolutionary change. Imagine a car with only one gear. That's a normal prop. It's almost always in the wrong gear. Compared to a car with many gears -- that's a variable pitch prop.
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Old 13-06-2015, 04:20   #194
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

In a marina, without the natural sea breeze and a water that does not invite a midnight dip the heat can be a problem. Avoid marinas .
Agreed, can't always do it though.[/I]

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
There are lots of advantages to lithium so I am still undecided. Running 24V (primarly for the anchor winch) and solar (as opposed to a generator based system) reduces the advantages, but there is still a lot of appeal.
I think all the advantages are there regardless of system voltage. I have a 24v system and struggled with voltage drop for the bowthruster with my lead batteries unless they were full, but the advantages go far further than voltage drop if that is what you are referring to.

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If there is a radar pole at the rear, I agree a starboard pole makes sense, as when heaved-to, starboard tack is the preferred side.
I thought it was more to make sure the radar could see the starboard side unobstructed, which is where most stand on traffic will be seen.

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I am much less convinced by electric headsail furlers. A well engineered furling system is not difficult to put in on a 50' boat and putting electric motors in the wettest part of the boat when it can be avoided seems madness. What I am missing here?
If you have powered winches and can operate a rope furler and don't mind the rope clutter then I'd go with that. I think motors in wet places can work. Windlass motors and winches for example.

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I have specified a Muir chain stopper with a Devil's claw. I think the Maxwell design is almost the same. Opinions?
Nice!



Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It does seem sensible, but when you analyse the hose runs it is hard to achieve in practice, especially for the outlet side. On the best aluminium boats the seacocks are installed above the waterline. This reassuringly eliminates the risk of flooding from a leaking seacock or hose (unless the boat is heeled a long way when sailing). The standpipes reduce the advantage of a sea chest, and also reduce fall, making installing a central drain point more difficult.
Understood. You will have to make compromises. A sewage hose running the length of the boat will be asking for problems for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
With good insulation the main purpose of dorades is to provide some airflow when the boat is completely closed up when left unattended. As we normally live almost 365 days a year on the boat we have not specified any dorades. We will have lots of hatches. The hatches will be non standard. Stay tuned for more details
I think the boat will be uncomfortable on passage without them. How will you ventilate the boat then?

Also, as you are not having hull ports how will you vent the cabin without getting wet from rain through an open hatch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
So the "car fridge approach" with redundancy, high reliability, low cost and no requirement for someone to come out to the boat to affect repairs if there is a failure seems like an ideal solution for us. However, if you require a large capacity fridge it is not the best solution.
I think I'd also look at a modern high efficiency rated domestic 240v fridge/freezer. The most efficient use extremely little power now. About 0.8 amp equivalent at 24v for quite a big unit from Bosch. That's what I would get on a new boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Safety is better if you can get rid of propane.

Space and weight I am not do sure. Even if you want to carry lots of propane, the alternative genset, diesel, spares, oil and extra house batteries, switch panel and possibly start battery for the genset would I think take up more space and room, but maybe not enough to matter.

As far as reliability, I disagree. This is the big drawback of electric cooking via a genset. There is not much that can go wrong with a propane bottle other than it can be empty .

Hassle hunting down bottles: yes, this can be a pain. Carrying 40kg of propane reduces this problem to a rare event.
Safety is reason enough for me.

At a guess a small 190kg generator will add a bit to your boat more than propane. Maybe 100kg. You could use the engine battery. The diesel stored will be very small. The switch panel is often built into the genset. Also to add is the exhaust, whcih has to be fitted with a well designed water separator/silencer.

I don't agree that propane cooking is at all reliable. There is also maintenance. I have had to replace all my hoses and valves, had a lot of work dealing with corroded tanks, had my cooker hose fray and break through, I have my burners corrode and regularly block up, all the spark starters have failed, I had my thermocouples break etc.
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Old 13-06-2015, 04:22   #195
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

In my experience with Motor boats.

I overpropped conservatively. There reaches a point when the gains are no longer effective.

75hp with strong wind over tide would be a test for your boat. I have been stood still in a 17 foot motorboat and a modern 40hp on full revs.
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