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Old 11-06-2015, 08:23   #151
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I would love to see the dinghy storage on your present boat -- photos?
This photo at haulout shows the dinghy arrangement best. The solar panels are hinged and can be raised and lowered to easily follow the sun while at anchor. It takes less than a couple of minutes to pull up the panels and launch the dinghy. There is one roller right at the very rear so that the hull is not hit while launching. Two rollers and a timber structure with a "V" support it further forward. For longer passages there is room for the dinghy motor on a bracket in one of the lazarettes:
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:26   #152
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

^^ I am not at all an expert on this . . . but my feeling on engines in the high latitudes . . . . we had the 75hp . . . . and I will say that I think the wave situation can be more about prop area than HP. We could have used a bigger prop (had 20" could have used 24 or 26" in some situations) but (IMHO) did not need more HP. Bigger props however obviously come with drawbacks (sailing drag and rope catching).

essentially we never found it smart to try to motor right into waves, and I think thats true unless you have a 'power boat', but we did find it extremely effective to motor/sail (just main up) at a 20 degree apparent angle - made excellent vmg and did not need more hp, just could have used more blade area for push thru the wave cycles.

In the end I was happy with the compromises we made in this area. We never could not get anywhere because of lack of HP or prop.

As an aside, Dock, the lower HP yanmar blocks are reputed to be more reliable than the higher spec ones. It's the same block, but the higher hp models drive it harder and have additional equipment hung on it (coolers and various spec turbos). I have never seen the actual data but it makes sense to me that a 'detuned' block would be more reliable. Listening to your desires and priorities, if you ever seriously consider another boat, I honestly think you should think about Dashew's "ultimate logical solution" - the offshore powerboat - there is obviously a ton of power generation (both electricity and propulsion) and they tend to have much better dinghy space. If you want a systems heavy, high power gen, motor thru anything, environment it just makes sense.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:49   #153
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
This photo at haulout shows the dinghy arrangement best. The solar panels are hinged and can be raised and lowered to easily follow the sun while at anchor. It takes less than a couple of minutes to pull up the panels and launch the dinghy. There is one roller right at the very rear so that the hull is not hit while launching. Two rollers and a timber structure with a "V" support it further forward:
Bloody brilliant Best I've ever seen on a boat that size I think I could be perfectly happy with something like that.

Are you sure you want to go from THAT to a pair of bloody DAVITS?

I would really think five times about that.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:21   #154
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
This photo at haulout shows the dinghy arrangement best. The solar panels are hinged and can be raised and lowered to easily follow the sun while at anchor. It takes less than a couple of minutes to pull up the panels and launch the dinghy. There is one roller right at the very rear so that the hull is not hit while launching. Two rollers and a timber structure with a "V" support it further forward. For longer passages there is room for the dinghy motor on a bracket in one of the lazarettes:
Hmmm.... What are your plans for your current boat?.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:35   #155
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Hmmm.... What are your plans for your current boat?.
At some point she will have to be sold. Despite the joys of designing and taking delivery of a new boat, it will be a sad day and we hope to see her go to a good home.

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Old 11-06-2015, 11:45   #156
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

For dinghy storage, you should do like the helicopter boats smoke-stack davits By the way, when we saw him in the canaries, they were using a small inflatable floor dinghy.

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Old 11-06-2015, 12:46   #157
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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For dinghy storage, you should do like the helicopter boats smoke-stack davits By the way, when we saw him in the canaries, they were using a small inflatable floor dinghy.

Matt
For those unfamiliar with Anabel (the "Helicopter Boat"), it has a keel cooled dry exhaust system and these 'davits' were the exhaust outlets. The 'davits' also incorporated dual wind generators that could be raised to tower many metres above the deck to catch every breeze. Dinghy storage was just one other feature.

Lots of ingenious ideas on this boat, but not what we are aiming for.

It should be remembered that with custom boats like this the designers will produce whatever the client is adamant they want.

They are probably cringing that we want to detract from the clean purposeful lines of the boat by adding an arch for solar. We hope they will accept the challenge of making this as aesthetically pleasing as possible . A solar powered boat (plus diesel engine) is non negotiable and an arch is the only effective means of providing this at anchor if we shade the boat with a boom tent as expected (boom tent will be essential in hot climates).

We are also increasing the size of the pilot house, but after playing with sketches, I actually think this will improve the looks of the boat, with or without arch. Little top weight will be added doing this, as the pilothouse floor area will only be increased a little. The rest will create a void, increasing ceiling height in the salon and galley and creating a real feeling of space. It should work so well, I suspect some other new Bestevaer owners may request this.

I am happy to accept davits if I can have big settees with a view and a "void" (we currently have helming controls and a reasonable view from our raised nav station so this won't be a big change).

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Old 12-06-2015, 02:31   #158
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Another great post. Thanks Poiu.
There are so many posts in this thread from people whose opinion I value. It is like having your own private boat consultants

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Heating/cooling
Both are a necessity in many parts of the world, not a luxury. Unless you are going into places where water temperatures are below 5deg C a reverse cycle air con system is very effective and efficient, no less efficient than a drip heater.
At anchor we do not find hot weather a great problem on a boat. There is always the option of a swim to cool off (you can even check the anchor at the same time ).
Without an air conditioned car, work and home environment there tends to be natural adaption. Air conditioning also isolates you completely from the natural environment and encourages staying shut up down below.

In a marina, without the natural sea breeze and a water that does not invite a midnight dip the heat can be a problem. Avoid marinas .


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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Hifi
I have an a/c Linn amp and quality overhead speakers in each area. Cockpit, saloon, owner's and guest cabin all fed from MP3s on the PC. Great sound and not optional equipment in my view.
This is more a personal hobby for me and not applicable to most boat owners. The system I have at the moment of B&W speakers and Alpine head unit is better than most similar boats have. It produces great sound for movies and casual listening, but the quality is not good enough to simply listen to music for its own sake. I am not sure this goal is achievable in a cruising boat, but the aim is to give it a try. This will be an owner installed system so other than planning the location of speakers it does not influence the build.

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Batteries
LiFePo4. Big thumbs up for these. Mine have been great. Not many dissenters out there.
There are lots of advantages to lithium so I am still undecided. Running 24V (primarly for the anchor winch) and solar (as opposed to a generator based system) reduces the advantages, but there is still a lot of appeal.

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Genset/power
I realise it will take a lot to sell the genset to you.
Yep, sorry .

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I'd go for the Victron or Mastervolt charger/inverters. Victron also do a super light, seemingly switch mode isolation transformer. I don't know how that works. I wonder if it is suitable?
Mastervolt seems to win judging by the user reports on CF. A 24v 2500w inverter will be fitted. With no shore power, an isolation transformer and battery charger are not needed.

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Radar mast
I note it is on the port side in the picture, shouldn't it be on the starboard side? I think it would be tidier up the mast though. I'd think about making room for the new Simrad Halo open array type. Looks like a game changer.
The radar will be on the mast to avoid solar shading. The technology is changing so rapidly I have not looked at this in detail, but Halo is on the list to research further. Thanks for the recommendation.

If there is a radar pole at the rear, I agree a starboard pole makes sense, as when heaved-to, starboard tack is the preferred side.


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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Dinghy
Probably not a helpful suggestion for you as it may change the boat too much to be viable: it seems to me that a dinghy on davits or even on deck is hideous
Our current boat is brilliant in this regard and is something we will miss.

An arch with davits does make sense for a solar boat and we are hoping by specifying these at the design phase, rather than an add-on, they can be made to function well and be structurally sound and look integrated. There will be provision on the foredeck in front of the mast for the dinghy in severe conditions.

I agree they do tend to look ugly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
My electric winches have been pretty reliable and I think they are in general, so going electric is another area for the KISS principle to be compromised. You will be an old crock before you sell this boat and so you are building for your dotage probably.
There have been a lot of votes for electic winches. So I think this is one change we need to make.

We have never felt unduly taxed by our current manual winches, but with a slightly greater sail area this could be an issue, especially as we are all getting older.

I am much less convinced by electric headsail furlers. A well engineered furling system is not difficult to put in on a 50' boat and putting electric motors in the wettest part of the boat when it can be avoided seems madness. What I am missing here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Chain claw
Seems missing. I would fit one. What, he is advising the anchoring guru of something to do with anchoring. What impertinence.
LOL. I have specified a Muir chain stopper with a Devil's claw. I think the Maxwell design is almost the same. Opinions?





Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Bimini
I'd make it fixed and insulated as sunbrella lets a lot of heat through and cover it in flexible lightweight solar panels with a couple of windows to see the sails. Also panels on the deckhouse. I'd put tracks down the side to put side covers down to give a totally dry cockpit for wet passages or for when it is really rainy. In the tropics nearly every boat has a bimini and keep them up all the time, so why not make it permanent to start with.
The solar panel arch provides a nice amount of permanent shade, but it also gives a good attachment point for additional Sunbrella. We plan a removable bimini between the solar panel arch and pilothouse roof. This will probably be used more at anchor, but could be used sailing if desired.
Seaworthy Lass is brilliant with a sewing machine so there will be lots of shade. It is a challenge making a pilot house an asset in both cold and warm climates, but a boom tent is planned (design based on our current one).
A totally dry enclosed cockpit is less important with the pilothouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Sea-chest.
I.e. minimum through hulls. Just seems sensible.
It does seem sensible, but when you analyse the hose runs it is hard to achieve in practice, especially for the outlet side. On the best aluminium boats the seacocks are installed above the waterline. This reassuringly eliminates the risk of flooding from a leaking seacock or hose (unless the boat is heeled a long way when sailing). The standpipes reduce the advantage of a sea chest, and also reduce fall, making installing a central drain point more difficult.


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Aluminium
You obviously like it as you are going for a second one. Aluminium has high emissivity - don't you feel the heat inside on a hot sunny day?.
No. One of the big advantages of aluminium is that the hull is much better insulated than a fiberglass boat. Our current boat has 75mm of insulation on the deck and hull and it works brilliantly. The new boat will be the same. The insulation makes the boat much cooler in summer and warmer in winter, as well as insulating noise. However, the biggest advantage is that there is no condensation (except around hatches) so the boat stays dry and fresh.

There are some un-insulated aluminium yachts, but this is usually seen only in ex-racing or home built versions. Even 15-20mm of insulation will be better than a fiberglass boat, but thick insulation is strongly recommended. This enables you to get away without the generator and air conditioning .

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Swing keel/rudders
Having been shut out of quite a few shallow spots this is something that appeals to me. It would occasionaly be great to get right up to the shore. Twin spade rudders for redundancy and efficiency appeals too.
The unballasted swing keel yachts like Boreal, Garcia, Ovni, Allures, etc do have a lot of appeal. There are significant differences to conventional fixed keel yachts creating pros and cons. As always, there is no perfect answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Sealable dorades
I have lost a few bits of kit due to seawater ingress. Worth fitting seals, but I can't see any dorades on the pictures. How do you get fresh air in at sea? I can understand removing dorades as they will block the view, but you still need to get air inside.
Ventilation is incredibly important in a cruising boat. Good insulation removes the need for a lot of the cold weather ventilation that is mostly needed to control condensation, but in summer lots of airflow is needed.

With good insulation the main purpose of dorades is to provide some airflow when the boat is completely closed up when left unattended. As we normally live almost 365 days a year on the boat we have not specified any dorades. We will have lots of hatches. The hatches will be non standard. Stay tuned for more details

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Fridge
To help with the KISS process: I recently installed a frigoboat fridge evaporator with is a freezer chamber with a lid. With it I have a fridge and a small freezer combined. Works really well for ice, ice cream and the odd fish filleted and I don't bother turning on the freezer now
Good quality boat fridges work well until they don't work .

My wife managed wonderful meals even when we were cruising on small boats with little or no refrigeration. This is mostly technique (if your wife suggests ordering a vacuum pump, don't panic guys, it is just used to keep cheese fresh ).

So the "car fridge approach" with redundancy, high reliability, low cost and no requirement for someone to come out to the boat to affect repairs if there is a failure seems like an ideal solution for us. However, if you require a large capacity fridge it is not the best solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
This is against your KISS principle. I'd vote electric, but you do need to concede on the genset first. Anyway, with the space and weight with the tanks you can house a genset, improve safety and reliability on board and reduce hassle in not hunting down or decanting propane.
Safety is better if you can get rid of propane.

Space and weight I am not do sure. Even if you want to carry lots of propane, the alternative genset, diesel, spares, oil and extra house batteries, switch panel and possibly start battery for the genset would I think take up more space and room, but maybe not enough to matter.

As far as reliability, I disagree. This is the big drawback of electric cooking via a genset. There is not much that can go wrong with a propane bottle other than it can be empty .

Hassle hunting down bottles: yes, this can be a pain. Carrying 40kg of propane reduces this problem to a rare event.
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:45   #159
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Im making the assumption that you have been supplied with design plans to doodle with.

Is it possible to post one or two of the profile view so we can doodle?

Somehow on a boat of this shape, an arch doesnt sit well with my concept of beauty. What are your total power requirements from solar? I would like to see YOUR profile view of the vessel with the heightened Pilot house etc.
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:44   #160
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Im making the assumption that you have been supplied with design plans to doodle with.

Is it possible to post one or two of the profile view so we can doodle?

Somehow on a boat of this shape, an arch doesnt sit well with my concept of beauty. What are your total power requirements from solar? I would like to see YOUR profile view of the vessel with the heightened Pilot house etc.
I initially just played with plans directly from K&M's website, but we have been provided with better quality images. Dykstra Architects actually drafted a quick plan based on what I gave them when we visited them last year. I will photgraph and post the before and after shots in a moment.

I think it is an improvement, but I am sure none of you will hold back in telling me if you think it looks dreadful .

The arch is a tough one. It is not being fitted for beauty. Sometimes practical advantages win.

My idea of breathtaking beauty in a boat is a sleek hull. This is easy to achieve in racing boats and large yachts. Limited headroom is the issue on small boats and they immediately start to look more chunky. Add a pilothouse to that (wonderfully practical and something I am really looking forward to) and the chunky factor increases even further.

Adding davits to a sleek boat looks truly revolting to me. Adding them to a boat that is already a bit chunky in proportions is far less of a crime. Although it can never make a boat look classically beautiful, I am hoping the arch will make our boat look seriously purposeful, not ugly.

SWL
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:17   #161
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Im making the assumption that you have been supplied with design plans to doodle with.

Is it possible to post one or two of the profile view so we can doodle?
The top image is the current profile of the Bestevaer 49ST. The bottom image is how the I would like the pilothouse altered. I think it significantly improves the balance, but that is just my biased view. What is everyone's impression?

Arches are another matter. Ladies and gentlemen, if you feel like playing, get your pencils out and see what adding a rear arch for solar panels does. The central part of the transom will flip out as a swim platform, so you only need head height from the cockpit floor level, not the deck.

I have of course doodled with an arch and think it could look 'acceptable', but see what you can come up with :

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Old 12-06-2015, 05:18   #162
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Here's a really good analysis of different heating systems:

https://www.morganscloud.com/2009/12...ating-systems/

"In summary, both systems have their pros and cons. I think that if we were fitting out an expedition boat from scratch we would have a Refleks with a heat exchanger and registers, and an undersized Eberspacher hot air system; the first for long periods in port or at the anchor and the second to knock the chill off at sea and on brisk mornings. As both Polaris and Morgan’s Cloud have, I would also install a heat exchanger hot air blower off the engine cooling system, since this delivers what is essentially free heat whenever the engine is running. This is a lot of mechanical stuff for one function, it is true, but being cold in the high latitudes is at best a trip spoiler and at worst dangerous."

As with so many boat systems, there is not an ideal answer.

But for sure if you think about high latitudes, even Northern Europe, pay a lot of attention to heat, which is a crucial system.

With no generator and not even shore power, you have no backup electric heat -- one of several drawbacks of your KISS electrical system. Partially compensated by your choice of the REFLEKS, which is the most reliable possible furnace.

We heat year round up here, so have some experience with heating I can share.

The best heat by far is electric, run off shore power. It's the major attraction of being in a marina in the winter (which is usually cheap because it's the off season). If I were building a new boat, I would have an electric resistance heat unit built into the hydronic central heating system, with a separate shore power lead.

Eberspaecher hydronic is just like Morgan's Cloud describes it -- functionally superior but high maintenance and not reliable enough to be your only heat source in cold remote places, unless you have a whole redundant furnace. But one of several big advantages it has is that you can splice in other heat sources, including even a REFLEKS heat exchanger, also waste heat from engine.

Using waste heat to heat the interior is really useful for cold climates. I don't have this yet but it's high on my list. You just splice in a bus heater into the engine coolant loop you are using to heat your calorifier. Cheap, simple, and very effective -- you can take 10kW or more of heat out of your engine fresh water cooling circuit with no problem. Highly recommended.

I am right now using my generator and electric heaters as backup heat at anchor, as my Eber is down (I didn't manage to do the biannual maintenance and it is coked up). One of many, many things you can do to backup other systems with abundant AC power, hint, hint.

Someone else mentioned reverse cycle AC and we talked about it some. Not relevant for you, I guess. We had it on the last boat, which was used in a warm climate (Florida). With no generator, we could only use it on shore power. But it is extremely efficient and is a Godsend when you're cold, even if you have to find a marina to use it. We actually used it quite a bit.

Like you, I have never found the need for air conditioning at anchor even in the tropics. But I have wanted it in hot ports and marinas, and you might die in an urban port in the tropics without it. I don't have it on my boat, but would probably install it if I built a new one. Unless you plan to stay in the Aegean the rest of your life, you should be careful not to assume that all your cruising will be at anchor like in Greece -- in many parts of the world, the ports are a large part of the attraction.


For heat, I would probably do what Morgan's Cloud recommends, with a REFLEKS or solid fuel stove on a bulkhead in the salon, but with hydronic distribution and a separate Eber furnace. If you're going to insist on being KISS with heat, or if you don't plan to spend much time in cold places, then your solution is probably ideal. I'd add the bus heater, though.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:51   #163
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Just had time to copy you deckhouse to the pic.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:58   #164
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

HOw high and wide do you envision the arch?
Do you want integral davits in it?
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:04   #165
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Just had time to copy you deckhouse to the pic.
You are skilled Weav!

It would look better with the windows larger and evenly spaced, as they will be. To my eye the front bit needs raking more. It think you have also made it too large. It doesn't look right to my eye (I think my version was smaller).

What do you think overall?

SWL

Edited to add: I have measured the size on your image and it is 15% bigger than mine. Doesn't sound like much, but I personally think yours is too big.
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