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Old 11-06-2015, 03:41   #136
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Rather than offer suggestions in areas that you have made your mind up regarding, I wonder if there is merit in contacting Bestevaer owners and finding out what changes THEY would suggest.

As I look at the vessel, and the years of experience the company have, Im beginning to see that the builders design a certain way for a purpose. Even though the individual comments here are based on experience, they are NOt based on the build of the 49.

Have to say Nolex and SeaWorthy that the boat is of a standard not seen overmuch in its base state, and I know that what is beng mulled over is in the main, preferences rather than safety additions. That baby is strong from the outside in and the inside out.

Great choice and even without auxiliary power backup of a small generator, it will be a great liveaboard.

(Though it will be better with one.)

Good suggestion, Weav.
Just over a year ago we visited the K&M yard during the week of their Open day and spoke to the owners of about half a dozen Bestevaers (including a 49 owner and the other 49 owner that was shortly to take delivery) and also owners of Stadships K&M had built as well. It was spring and these boats were yet to commence their summer Baltic cruising (other Bestevaers are scattered in assorted locations worldwide, tropical included).

When chatting to owners, one of our first questions was "What would you change?". Followed by "What have you had trouble with". After a bit of a think, their frustrating answer was generally "Very little". A few minor things were mentioned (the owner of one boat, for example, said that a double settee in the salon would have been good). Not helpful, but it was good to hear of no major problems that needed solving or design faults they would want changed.

It was also encouraging that owners were happy with their boats and also happy enough with them to bring them back on Open day so others could view them. Unhappy owners generally aren't asked to do this .

On the other hand, we are aware these were a selected group and it would be very useful to chat to other owners are well.

We have also spoken to Gerard Dykstra himself (now retired) and it was invaluable crawling all over his personal yacht (a 53 footer and the first of this series built). It was very interesting to see how the boat had aged after hard use, as well as the modifications he had made. He is a serious cruiser (I will avoid the use of the term "blue water" ) and in addition a keen racer, both singled handing at times, and as navigator on races such as the Whitbread (he was on the winning boat in 1977).

I think one reason for the appeal and success of the Bestevaer series is that the boats were designed not just by a skilled and highly experienced architect, but by someone experienced with and passionate about not only cruising, but also racing. Bestevaers are very sturdy, but by no means sluggishly slow. In addition, on Dykstra's personal boat, reliability and low maintenance were given high priorities (he generally cruises remote areas such as Iceland and Patagonia). We will be mimicking a lot of his choices.

K&M have built some gorgeous luxury super yachts as well (check out 27m Tulip). The high level of finish, both exterior and interior is another thing that appeals to us. Tulip:
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:54   #137
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This is a photo of the lower rudder bearing on a Bestevaer 49 (ignore the black wire, which is just an electrical lead belonging to a power tool used during construction):




You can see the substantial reinforcement that is used to support the lower bearing of the rudder. It is important that this area is very strong. The preferred failure mode is to have the rudder bend or even break before compromising the watertight integrity of the hull.

If you are buying a boat take the time to inspect the construction details of areas like this. Chainplate and keel attachment are other vital areas. The effort a builder has put into these structural details will tell you far more about how suitable the boat is for "blue water" than a lot of the forum internet discussions on this subject .
Indeed. In fact I think structural integrity has got to be the very first and top value in a boat which is used in the open sea and higher latitudes (avoiding the color words here ). Because without that, nothing else matters, does it?

This thread has really made me take notice of alu boats, something I had never been interested in before. This method of construction seems to really gives some great possibilities for the structure. This boat is extremely impressive from all points of view, but especially the structure.

I also love the deck and construction details of the deck, the bulwarks, the -- what do you call the holes in the bulwarks, like on a ship? This is very much my idea of what a long-distance cruising boat should be like.
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:58   #138
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This thread has really made me take notice of alu boats, something I had never been interested in before. This method of construction seems to really gives some great possibilities for the structure. This boat is extremely impressive from all points of view, but especially the structure.
Alu would be perfect for your needs. If you appreciate things well designed and built some of these boats are things of sheer beauty that is not skin deep. It is the material of choice for most super yachts too.

K&M would even accomodate your generator needs. They are accustomed to handling odd requests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I also love the deck and construction details of the deck, the bulwarks, the -- what do you call the holes in the bulwarks, like on a ship? This is very much my idea of what a long-distance cruising boat should be like.
I have struggled to name these too. I think if anchor chain goes through one it is called a 'hawse hole'. If a line (eg mooring line) is passed through it is a 'fairlead'. If down to the deck it is a 'drain hole'. But what the heck are the ones you can attach blocks to called?

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Old 11-06-2015, 05:19   #139
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Alu would be perfect for your needs. If you appreciate things well designed and built some of these boats are things of sheer beauty that is not skin deep. It is the material of choice for most super yachts too.

K&M would even accomodate your generator needs. They are accustomed to handling odd requests



I have struggled to name these too. I think if anchor chain goes through one it is called a 'hawse hole'. If a line (eg mooring line) is passed through it is a 'fairlead'. If down to the deck it is a 'drain hole'. But what the heck are the ones you can attach blocks to called?

SWL
Something to think about.

I'd like mine to be about 60 feet long, with the interior volume of a 50 footer and the beam of a 50 footer. The "light ends" would contain a dinghy garage aft, and a sail locker/parts store forward.

The more I think about the dinghy garage, the more I like it. Who was it (in this thread?) that made the very insightful comment that if you have davits, you've got the length anyway, so why not? Extend the the hull and get the benefit of more waterline length, much less windage, much easier launching. If you look at the dinghy garage on the HR64, you see that it's more than a dinghy garage -- it's a super lazarette which is used to store other things as well, and for mounting different items of gear. There is access to it from above, through a large deck hatch, as well as through the transom. This is perfect for a "light ends" type boat.

I like the "agricultural" or maybe "industrial" deck devoid of nonsense with industrial-type ground tackle handling.

I like the combination of rough bare alu exterior (like Wind Horse) with elegant interior finishing.

I love the strength, the water tight compartments, the coffer dams, the stand pipes.

Me likes very much, although I still can't quite get my mind around alu -- electrolysis, electrical safety, scratching or denting it on docks, what will it be like to the touch. I guess I need to look at more alu boats in the flesh.
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:21   #140
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Something to think about.

I'd like mine to be about 60 feet long, with the interior volume of a 50 footer and the beam of a 50 footer. The "light ends" would contain a dinghy garage aft, and a sail locker/parts store forward.

The more I think about the dinghy garage, the more I like it. Who was it (in this thread?) that made the very insightful comment that if you have davits, you've got the length anyway, so why not? Extend the the hull and get the benefit of more waterline length, much less windage, much easier launching. If you look at the dinghy garage on the HR64, you see that it's more than a dinghy garage -- it's a super lazarette which is used to store other things as well, and for mounting different items of gear. There is access to it from above, through a large deck hatch, as well as through the transom. This is perfect for a "light ends" type boat.

I like the "agricultural" or maybe "industrial" deck devoid of nonsense with industrial-type ground tackle handling.

I like the combination of rough bare alu exterior (like Wind Horse) with elegant interior finishing.

I love the strength, the water tight compartments, the coffer dams, the stand pipes.

Me likes very much, although I still can't quite get my mind around alu -- electrolysis, electrical safety, scratching or denting it on docks, what will it be like to the touch. I guess I need to look at more alu boats in the flesh.
I just love the generator.

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Old 11-06-2015, 05:23   #141
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

So much insistence that we all give up solo sailing, I decided to argue something else today

And to be honest, I dont feel like fighting anymore. Perhaps I will just go for a sail down the channel tonight before I am not permitted to............
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:39   #142
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I just love the generator.

Suum cuique.

The situation with generators is illustrative. I am very happy with the electrical system on my present boat. I always have enough power and I never worry about it. When a system on a cruising boat is like that, it is precious, and you don't want to change.

Noelex and SWL are in exactly the same position, so it's understandable that they don't want to change anything. They want to concentrate on those things which they like less about their present boat.

That's also what I would do. And those are:

1. dinghy storage
2. dinghy storage
3. dinghy storage

oops . . .

2. pilot house
3. walk in engine room
4. better deck arrangement
5. better storage
6. faster
7. lighter
8. stronger
9. more watertight integrity

Sorry, I'm going to be accused of thread hijack again But in the spirit of cooking up new yacht designs and with the hope that it is interesting for Noelex and SWL, as their thoughts have been so interesting to us.

I wouldn't change the basic architecture of my electrical system, but I would be strongly tempted to go with LiFePo since these are so perfectly suited to charging with a generator.

If I did decide to go that way, it would be a good sized bank with proper fire-safe storage and good access. Then you don't want the small generator which is more efficient to use with L/A batts, you want maybe even 10kW or 12kW (vs 6.5kW on my present boat). That way you can exploit the huge charge acceptance rate of LiFePo for deliciously short generator runs. Could be a DC generator, although that's not very important.

I would gang the charger/inverters for redundancy and capacity.

I might go 36 volts for efficiency with localized step-down to 12v for 12v consumers.

I might forgo solar unless the designer could come up with some really elegant way to mount them. I hate the windage and clutter.

I would put in reverse cycle heat and AC, probably, in case I end up in the tropics ever. Electric cooking as we've discussed.

Massive school bus alternator, or two, on the oversized main engine (150 -- 200 horsepower).
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:41   #143
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

For dinghies, there is a preference on my part for them to be SAT on something. A definite addition to my Cat if I built one would be a Dinghy park or rack. (and a generator).
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:43   #144
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Something to think about.

I'd like mine to be about 60 feet long, with the interior volume of a 50 footer and the beam of a 50 footer. The "light ends" would contain a dinghy garage aft, and a sail locker/parts store forward.

The more I think about the dinghy garage, the more I like it. Who was it (in this thread?) that made the very insightful comment that if you have davits, you've got the length anyway, so why not? Extend the the hull and get the benefit of more waterline length, much less windage, much easier launching. If you look at the dinghy garage on the HR64, you see that it's more than a dinghy garage -- it's a super lazarette which is used to store other things as well, and for mounting different items of gear. There is access to it from above, through a large deck hatch, as well as through the transom. This is perfect for a "light ends" type boat.

I like the "agricultural" or maybe "industrial" deck devoid of nonsense with industrial-type ground tackle handling.

I like the combination of rough bare alu exterior (like Wind Horse) with elegant interior finishing.

I love the strength, the water tight compartments, the coffer dams, the stand pipes.

Me likes very much, although I still can't quite get my mind around alu -- electrolysis, electrical safety, scratching or denting it on docks, what will it be like to the touch. I guess I need to look at more alu boats in the flesh.
Our thoughts exactly .
We have been sold on alu from the word go, specifically searching out an aluminium boat when we decided to try full time cruising. We are hooked and this is the only material we considered for this new boat as well. All materials have their faults, but we think the ones with alu are minimal if the boat is wired well and dissimilar metals kept apart and potential for crevasse corrosion avoided.

And yes, that combo of a rugged no nonsense exterior combined with a beautiful interior is something I love.

Regarding the dinghy storage, if dependence on solar was not a requirement, I would not hesitate for an instance doing as you suggest in a bigger boat.

I have still to dig up or take from the water a shot of our current exterior dinghy storage system. Sorry, been busy. Will get cracking.

SWL
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:51   #145
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

^^ Good welding and nice fabrication details.

Just curious about some of the details in the photo. I have tried to guess.

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BTW, on the holes in the toerail for blocks - if you are going to use spectra thru them you want a 1/4 round router bit run around both sides, but if you are going to use stainless shackles you don't want that and instead want a stainless bushing (as in the chainplates). So, its a bit of either/or and you need to think it thru a bit. I used stainless shackles for most of my 'fixed' blocked - like the checkstays and pole bridle points and preventer, and spectra loops for movable points like outboard sheeting blocks.

Also, we had 4 'pick point' lifting eyes built into the toe rail . so the boat could be lifted by a craine anywhere (say by a ship) without special marine gear (like the straps under the hull). These are essentially low-profile mini-chainplates built into the toerail and hooked to ring frames, placed to balance the boat when being lifted. This is very optional and we never used them but it was easy to do, so why not.

And we had similar very strong points points built into the very aft end of the toerail for series drogue attachment. This is less 'optional' in my mind because (IMHO) drogues are the survival storm tactic of choice for designs like this. and you need to think thru at this stage how you are going to rig them. We also used these attachment points for big blocks to fairlead from shore lines/med moor lines to the winches.
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:59   #146
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

By the way, why did you guys decide on such a small engine (75 hp)?

I would want at least 100 hp and better 125 hp for a 50' boat which I intended to use in bad weather and especially (!) in higher latitudes. You will rarely need the power, but when you need it, you really, really need it. For a 60 footer, 150 to 200 at least. The HR 64 has 300 horsepower.

People worry that you can't load up an oversized engine enough to keep it healthy, but a variable pitch prop like a Hundested (perfect for this kind of boat) or an Autoprop will fix that.

This is all the more true if you're going with Yanmar, where all the sailboat engines from 50 to 150 horsepower are exactly the same block. There's no reason in the world not to get the higher powered version which has the same dimensions and almost exactly the same weight.

Speaking from my experience with a 54' (on deck) boat with 16' beam, 20 metric tonnes light ship displacement -- I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have really needed all 100 horsepower I have. But each of those times I could have used 150 horsepower. And just those number of times over six years would have entirely justified having a 150 horsepower engine.

Something to think about.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:47   #147
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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^^ Good welding and nice fabrication details.

Just curious about some of the details in the photo. I have tried to guess.
Orange arrow: yes, propane locker vented to exterior

Red: cockpit drain (there are two large ones, the smaller diameter tube nearby is bracing)

Green: yes, rudder stop

Pink: engine bay ventilation

Blue: engine exhaust hose

Here is an overexposed shot of a boat under construction looking from starboard to port showing the detail in the dark areas better (internet is pathetically slow here at the moment so this is taking ages:
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:54   #148
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

We met this designer, Peter Gallinelli when he was launching his new 60' aluminium expedition yacht in La Rochelle last year. Some really interesting and original thinking goes into his designs and I'm sure you could glean some interesting ideas for your own yacht from his website
home - concept.pg - design naval
Of particular interest is his thoughts about self sustainability, passive energy and design features such as a propeller inspection coffer dam and dinghy dock. I particularly liked the rig, dagger board setup, overall simplicity and safety orange paint made it feel like a big toy
http://sailworks.net/icp/images/icp_mh_636.jpg
I'm not recommending you build this boat, just that you may find his site of interest for some outside the box ideas.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:57   #149
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
By the way, why did you guys decide on such a small engine (75 hp)?

I would want at least 100 hp and better 125 hp for a 50' boat which I intended to use in bad weather and especially (!) in higher latitudes. You will rarely need the power, but when you need it, you really, really need it. For a 60 footer, 150 to 200 at least. The HR 64 has 300 horsepower.

People worry that you can't load up an oversized engine enough to keep it healthy, but a variable pitch prop like a Hundested (perfect for this kind of boat) or an Autoprop will fix that.

This is all the more true if you're going with Yanmar, where all the sailboat engines from 50 to 150 horsepower are exactly the same block. There's no reason in the world not to get the higher powered version which has the same dimensions and almost exactly the same weight.

Speaking from my experience with a 54' (on deck) boat with 16' beam, 20 metric tonnes light ship displacement -- I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have really needed all 100 horsepower I have. But each of those times I could have used 150 horsepower. And just those number of times over six years would have entirely justified having a 150 horsepower engine.

Something to think about.
We will take that into serious consideration.

We have a 54hp Yanmar at the moment and it drives the boat beautifully. We do 7 knots @ 2300, but perhaps we have been spoiled by a very easily driven hull.
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Old 11-06-2015, 07:22   #150
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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We will take that into serious consideration.

We have a 54hp Yanmar at the moment and it drives the boat beautifully. We do 7 knots @ 2300, but perhaps we have been spoiled by a very easily driven hull.
You don't need power for normal motoring.

The thing is that the power needed to drive the boat goes up exponentially with rising sea state and head winds. In a dead calm I can do 6.5 to 7 knots using 1600 RPM and probably 2 liters an hour of fuel. At 2500 I get about 9 knots. But driving into short seas against a 30 knot headwind, as happened to me once, I might only get 1 or 2 knots at 3200 RPM.

There are cases when being able to power through bad conditions can even save your life, even considering the fact that we would all prefer to sail when we need tons of power.

The other good thing about a bigger engine is you will get a bigger shaft, bearings, gearbox, etc. to go with it, for more reserve of strength in normal conditions.

If you are going for a Yanmar 2.0 liter 4 cylinder, I would look at the 4JH110, rather than the 4JHTE, which I presume is what you are looking at. Same size and weight (almost), but 110 horsepower. I would really not want less than that in a boat that size, at least if you're going to be in higher latitudes.

In lower latitudes you don't need it and 75hp would be fine, in my opinion, but that boat has high latitudes written all over it.

The big decision about engines, besides size, is whether to go for a naturally aspired large displacement heavy simple one, or a light turbocharged one. There is no right answer to this question. The first choice has obvious advantages, but after living with an engine falling under the second category I have come around to really liking turbocharged engines for cruising boats. There are several reasons for this:

1. The way we use our engines, we rarely use more than 30% or 40% of the maximum power. So it's really inefficient to be using a 4000cc engine when you need 20 horsepower. Much better to make the top 60% or 70% of power from turbo boost which doesn't cost anything in size and weight. Cylinder temps we will be better running the same amount of power in a smaller displacement engine, too.

2. Turbocharging improves specific fuel consumption.

3. Turbo engines are smoother and quieter and have a more pleasant, mellower sound.

4. Turbo engines are far better in terms of power to weight ratio, and for sailing performance you don't want extra weight. A 100 horsepower Yanmar weighs half what an 85 horsepower Perkins weighs -- saving you a quarter ton of weight.

5. Turbo engines are more compact for a given power output, making it easier to provide access around them for servicing.

As to complexity, a turbocharger for a diesel engine, since it doesn't have a wastegate, has one (count 'em, 1) moving part. it is a dead simple, agricultural like device, requiring almost no maintenance and rarely giving any kind of trouble.

As to longevity: Something like a 4000cc 85hp naturally aspirated Perkins will definitely give more hours than a higher revving 2000cc turbocharged Yanmar. But this is irrelevant to our use, since our engines die from age and corrosion or failures of maintenance, not hours.

There are a few things I dislike about Yanmars, but on balance I would probably go that way if I were building a new boat. I have heard great things about the Nanni marinized Kubotas, however, so maybe also worth a look.
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