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Old 16-12-2012, 13:47   #46
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Sorry, here it is again:
1985 Luger Voyager 30 sailboat for sale in Missouri



Well, sorry again, my post took up the prior page, seeing this won't help much....geeez.
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Old 16-12-2012, 14:39   #47
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

It sounds you are going to go with the Luger no matter what anyone says, so I'm probably wasting my time. Believe you are seriously understimating the cost and time to finish off this boat. I've built one boat from a bare hull and currently redoing the interior on another and it's a very time consuming and expensive proposition. Got our Westsail kit into a comparable state of completion as the Luger in a couple of months, took another year of full time work to finish off the interior and that was with farming out the door and drawer fabrication. In any case, If you go with the Luger, paint out all the plywood and trim with wood. Makes for a light airy interior that will look way better than veneer. It was good enough finish criteria for Nat Herreshoff.

In both cases, it would have been way cheaper to buy a finished boat by a goodly sum. Learned a lot doing it and get satisfaction out of completing the project but it isn't a rational way to get out on the water. You will spend way more money and time and/or end up with a POS boat that will be the proverbial hole in the water.

As far as the Luger, the more I look at it the the worse that boat looks. If what I take are chainplates, they look pitifully undersized. Worse, they are attached to the deck, not the hull. They are relying on the hull to deck joint to hold the stick up. Way way stupid if that is what I'm seeing from the pictures. What are those power boat like ventilation strips on the cockpit sides and stern??? If they are indeed vents, will be a great way to get water into the boat.

Delivered a boat from St Pete to Norfolk. Took less than 3 weeks with couple days stopovers in Ft Lauderdale and Charleston. You should easily get a boat from Fla East Coast to New Orleans in less time than that. You should have a good idea how long the passage from there to your location will take. Don't think getting the boat home is a problem.

Most marinas will allow you to work on a boat in a slip. The controlling factor being not loading the dock and finger pier with your stuff for more than very short periods of time. Same goes for boat yards and liveaboards. Haven't found a yard yet that didn't allow me to stay aboard while the boat was on the hard. Building the Westsail, lived in a VW Bus parked next to the boat and moved onto the boat as sections were finished. In these days of Dock Nazi's, might have to shop around a bit, but doubt that you won't be able to find a place to liveaboard and work on the boat. In any case, if we are talking a finished boat, you aren't going to be reconstructing it, just adding things to make cruising and sailing easier.

When I was building our Westsail a guy who'd built 3 boats from scratch gave me a piece of good advise. Unfortunately I was too involved in the project to back out. "If you want to build a boat, build a boat; If you want to go sailing, go sailing. Don't try and mix the two as you'll probably accomplish neither."
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Old 16-12-2012, 17:12   #48
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Roverhi, no, my mind is not made up and I'm focused on your every word, I appreciate an honest assessment based on experience, that's why I'm here.

Very good and valid point on the chainplates!

The time line on this one, my biggest concern is the pattern for the ceiling and laying it out and doing it through a hatch! I won't get a one piece bulkhead across that goes down any further than the hatch will allow. I'd say either use material as the owner was attempting or a series of cross false beams with a center beam running fore and aft with inserts of beadboard, painting the beams. I have never put ports in, looks like a two person job, one outside and one inside. Covering the walls, thanks to 3M, doesn't seem to be an issue, the trim around the ports will take hours, that is slow depending on how it gets trimmed out.

I can see that building the storage and galley appointments I'd like will take months, my initial thought was pretty simple but now, after seeing some really nice gallys, I'd like to go further. Much of that could be done as I go, but gees, I know what it's like living in a project house!

So, as we get on the same page, I'd have to agree that it will take longer, but being retired and having time I wouldn't say a year. I have to admit too, I'm very much a 95%er, usually leaving the last 5% to finish later, might be three years to get that knocked out.

Those vents do look rather strange, is it an I/O or a sailboat? The Voyager has an enclosed motorwell at the stern rather than hanging on OB off one side. It rises up when not motoring and drops for use, some have trap doors to reduce drag, doubt this does. So the vents are for the enclosed engine and probably spare fuel tanks.

While I agree, it's not a beauty contest winner, I view it more like a personel carrier, tankish, a maxed out stern for an 8' beam. I have heard that it could be a faster boat being long for it's beam. I do like the fact that it's just a big trailer sailer, no storage/mooring fees here, no haul outs, no diving to clean the bottom. Acceptable compromises to it's less graceful lines I guess.

I am concerned about the unseen.

I realize it's unconventional to say you're going to motor a sailboat, but that really is the plan, it's much more efficient than a trawler with big twin diesels. What ever the boat ends up being, on the loop it will be motored more than it is sailed...if it is sailed at all. It may end up as a Terminal Trawler, a Strawler, a sailboat converted for power, losing the mast all together....I know, that's a sin. But, my first choice is to keep the option to sail.

My mind is not made up, I have not seen it yet, I think it warrants a look. Secondly, I'm not giving that asking price. I know the broker has considered finishing the boat, he does that, but he is moving to a bigger shop and builds trailers and doesn't have time (LOL, which translates to say it's not a profitable venture). Another issue is that there is no trailer, no trailer, no deal, why get a trailer boat without a trailer, might as well have a 12' beam!

But again, given all that, what's a dollar estimate to finish the boat? BTW, I could use a coleman for awhile instead of a real marine stove. There might be a stove, I don't know as I said.....but just as to interior stuff outlined.

Oh, and BTW, if anyone has a better deal, chime in!

As unfinished as it is, I'm not sure it couldn't sail/motor in a day.

It's good to know that most yards allow you to stay on the boat during work, that certainly cuts down on expenses.
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Old 16-12-2012, 17:31   #49
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

[QUOTE=Wavewacker;1108574]..................Capt Force, I looked at (on the web) a storm damaged boat missing its lower stern basically, too much for me. I also looked a fire sale, way too much damage for me.
A man has to know his limitations! (Thank you Dirty Harry)......................../QUOTE]

When I was speaking of finding a boat for a good price due to one major problem I sure didn't mean missing a portion of the hull or gutted by fire. I was considering just the removal and install of an engine or a galley reconstruction. Such a need can drop a price in half, but you must, as you said, know your limitations,- ... and choose your battles..
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Old 16-12-2012, 18:24   #50
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Nothing wrong with powering a sailboat especially if it's going to be in the relatively restricted waters that you are looking at cruising. Just don't plan on much than a 5 knot average speed. I'm happy with that when I'm forced to use the engine and have run for a couple of days on occasion.

If you are thinking of long range under power, seriously consider diesel power. A gasoline inboard will work but at about twice the fuel consumption of a diesel One thing to be said for the venerable Atomic 4 is they are a pleasure to motor with. Very little vibration and way quieter than a diesel. Don't think I'd opt for outboard power under any circumstances. Fine for getting in and out of the slip but not long range power.

Probably out of your price range but a Norsea 27 is a very well built and large 27' boat. It's trailerable and relatively shallow draft. It's a boat capable of going anywhere should your horizon stretch.
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Old 16-12-2012, 18:55   #51
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

I'm sure I'll get hammered for suggesting this, but if you are alone or possibly one other person I'd consider a MacGregor X if this trip is about doing the loop and not really about sailing a lot.

The loop is going to be a lot of motoring, the rivers, the ICW and the Erie Canal and the ICW across Florida. You have two major pieces of water to cross, upper Florida on the Gulf and the Great Lakes.

Put a 40-60 HP on the X and also a 10 HP. Run the big motor if you need to get across open water fairly quickly (15-18 mph). Pick a very good weather window to do that. The rest of the time run along on the 10 HP at 6-7 knots getting 10 mpg or so. They can be mounted at the same time. The boat will go into 18 inches of water and can be beached. Is easy to maneuver and you can sail it. Sure it isn't the worlds best sailboat but people do sail them.

It is easy to trailer and also easy to put the mast down on the water so the canal is no problem and no expense putting the mast up or down. It is very roomy for a 26 foot boat below. Ruth and I have been on the water 2 months on the S which has much less room below.

You are starting to see some of them go for under $7000...

Macgregor 26X Sailboat Photo Gallery

....and you could find ones in that neighborhood ready to go.

We have friends that live near Seattle and and have a X. They have sailed/motored from there to Alaska and back. Have sailed the Sea of Cortez on an extended trip. Have gone to the Bahamas twice from Florida, one time as far as the lower Exumas.

Not the perfect boat, but easy to single-hand and for a trip where the majority of it is going to probably be motoring maybe a possible choice worth considering,

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Old 16-12-2012, 19:26   #52
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

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Originally Posted by Geoff S. View Post
I think I'm the poster child of the Rebuild end of the continuum...currently in the eleventh year of a two-year refit. I got myself a "bargain boat fixer-upper", for a relative song ($10K for a 59-footer), and as wise souls have warned above, I ended up pretty much gutting her and starting over. Perhaps I'm just too obstinate for my own good, but I never once considered ditching things and cutting my losses. I simply adjusted my goal to a longer-range scenario whereby I'd end up with a virtually brand-new boat that was exactly what I've always wanted, that can take me anywhere in the world when I semi-retire (figuring ~10 years from now). That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Proof of my pig-headedness can be seen in all its glory in the Member's Gallery.

Cheers,
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I checked out your gallery...Great work. This HR 35 is my 5th restore. I'll add one thing to your post and that is a family behind you supporting your decisions.
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Old 16-12-2012, 20:05   #53
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Capt. Force, yes, I kinda got that, I was just saying those fixers I looked at were too far gone. Seems there would be all kinds of boats damaged from past storms, where do these insurance guys dump them? Seems a couple on Ebay, so far, too much work that over my head. I'm sure I could build a wood scow, I doubt I could do diddly with a glass boat. One messing a galley......funny you should mention that!

I did call about a steel 40' Bruse Roberts pilothouse, my favorite! The broker informed me why it was listed at 120k, then 100k, then 75k, then 50k and now at 20k! Long story short, it could be a steal of a deal, interior was fantastic btw, it needs replating. Anyone who knows steel boats could have a diamond in the rough, that guy is not me, the broker admitted it wasn't him but he considered it himself. Tearing in to that who knows what might be there, but for a good welder it could be a walk in the park.

The broker did however give me a "tip" about another one, said the owner got drunk and took a chainsaw to parts of the interior (not sure I want to meet that guy) but he said he'd pass my name on to the owner as it was too far away for him to deal with. Now, for that, I ride my motorcycle down there and move if I had to! Well, maybe.....

Roverhi, love the Norsea as well, great boat, something to I could handle right out of the marina. However, while I'm willing to go small, light and minimal, minimal still means a good galley with fridge, head w/shower and storage for the gf, I'm not sure 30' is enough, but I'd consider that one.

The "Rivers & Waterways of America's Great Loop"site got me started on the thinking of using a sailboat. The guy there has done the loop several times and advocates the use of an OB.
I had concerns as well, using a 9.9 merc, but I planned on getting a new one.

my computer is going nuts! be back, sorry

on edit now, I like the 26X, almost bought one 5 years ago, would have but the seller was not truthful by ommission with a 20 year old motor!
Been on them, we would not make it as a 1 year liveaboard, too minimal, but if it were just me, I could do that and I've noticed those prices droping as well. It's a good suv boat for lakes, rivers and the coasts.

get back, i have no idea why my screen is jumping around
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Old 16-12-2012, 22:26   #54
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

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I did call about a steel 40' Bruse Roberts pilothouse, my favorite! The broker informed me why it was listed at 120k, then 100k, then 75k, then 50k and now at 20k! Long story short, it could be a steal of a deal, interior was fantastic btw, it needs replating. Anyone who knows steel boats could have a diamond in the rough, that guy is not me, the broker admitted it wasn't him but he considered it himself. Tearing in to that who knows what might be there, but for a good welder it could be a walk in the park.
On another recent thread, I mentioned about having built a few steel boats and why I have F/G now. Also that my friend in Mx, tasted salt water in his integral water tanks, to find pin holes in the hull. This is the sort of things that can happen. I'm trying to encourage you to go with the numbers and go with F/G. You'll thank me later.
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Old 16-12-2012, 22:55   #55
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

In the ad I read:

Quote:
This boat needs finished! Owner started a restoration and lost interest midway!
Get a boat that doesnt need work to get out on the water.

I'd have lost interest too if I bought a boat that just equalled hours and hours of work with no time on the water. It would be different if it was a second boat and you have a keen interest in refinishing boats if that's the case go for it.

Other peices of interest.

The trailerable boat means it has a raiseable keel. This system in and of itself I've heard can have serious issues, I've read horror stories where some bolt can snap off going in or out of the water causing nothing sort of fatal leaks. Not sure the ballast system that is in use, if it's mounted to the keel or using a water ballast system.

I've not heard much good about trailerable sailboats bigger than a Laser but I'd love to be proven wrong.

You mention wanting to liveaboard for a year. Yet you want a trailerable sailboat? You going to live onboard for a year in the hard on a trailer?

I dont want to come across as being negative nancy here but it sounds to me like this isnt that well thought out of an adventure. Here's why.

a. You want a trailerable sailboat so you can save money by not paying marina fees to moor her. (Ie. Save money)

b. You want a fixer-upper sailboat (Ie. Save money) so you can work on it (Ie. Blow wads of money) and get a boat for cents on the dollar.

c. You want a boat you can liveaboard for a year (Ie. Save money) but you are buying a trailerable boat designed for a daysail or a weekender cruise

d. Your experience level (pardon me if I am out to lunch I havent read every post in the thread) seems low yet you want to buy a fixer-upper boat with a liftable keel, liveaboard it for a year and motor around the loop.

What doesn't seem to jive to me is that you want to (a) save money by getting a trailerable boat and a fixer upper yet (b) fixing up a boat to get her sea worthy is a hideously expensive thing especially for a novice.

Lets put it this way... My Col 26 Mk II came with two really nice self tailing winches. Those would cost about $1200 brand new installed. It also came with two downriggers, which would cost about $1200 to buy. All the other winches were upgraded, 4x midrange non tailing winches would be about $1200. Continuous furler probably about $1500. Cost of just those upgrades already mounted on deck $5100. I paid $4000 for the boat - ready to sail, ready to go.

What I'm getting at here is if you shop around (forget the boat brokers if your looking to save money - your broker guy referring you to a drunk guy who took a chainsaw is probably more of a joke) you can find a boat that is sailable and the sum of it's parts are worth well more than the purchase price. You get out on the water and inbetween sailing adventures you can do little bits of customizing here and there fixing her up.

Buying a peice of chit that needs hours and hours of work before hitting the water... IMO bad idea when there's so much ou there.
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Old 17-12-2012, 06:53   #56
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Celestialsailor, the closest thing I have ever had to a steel boat was an aluminum 16' V, something about steel says tough, bullet prrof cruising, I see that is not the case, entirely. If I were going say 150k to 250k for a steel boat I'd expect getting what I'd be paying for......that's not the case, so I will assume that any cheap steel boat is on a short waiting list of being scrap or a fish sanctuary. I won't buy a steel boat, I can't weld very well anyway. Thanks for the comments and enlightenment.

Mr Canada, yes your insight is correct, with about 50k as I mentioned up there, the budget gets down to 15k or less for the boat out of a yard or marina. A year as a liveaboard is the time set aside for the cruise, so I'd be floating not on a trailer.

Really, at my age it makes no sence at all to put a large boat in a slip at the lake, been there, done that. A boat 60 miles away isn't that much fun after awhile. Hauling a large boat isn't alot of fun either, but it beats the expenses of the alternative and at least you can go in the backyard and mess with it.

Initially, this is about a looper boat, doing the great loop, not a cruise to Panama. Would I like to run through the Panama and head up the west coast? Do fish swim?

You didn't sound negative to me, but really I don't think all trailer boats are as you may think. Mentioned above was a suggestion of the Norsea 27, a Kodiak pilothouse is a capable boat, there are folding tri hulls and micro cruisers that have sailed around Panama and the Bahamas and back. I'm not going to punish myself in a micro, like Ms. Cindy a tiny camping catamaran, but it would certainly do the great loop. Ashamed to say, I can't remember the guru master of all micros who sailed from northern Europe to South America who built a very heavy seaworthy trailerable boat....in fact, if I were a betting type, I'd say his would round the horn before any production boat 10' longer....while I wouldn't be comfortable I'd feel safer with him on his boat than a 40'er....but it's not the boat so much, it's the skills of those who sail them. Google; "Bris".

(there is a video of him pulling his boat on the street with wheels on the twin keels with a unicycle setup hooked to the bow, gotta see that!)

I haven't sailed really in over 40 years, that was 26/27' Thunderbird, so I'll say I'm new, but it is sorta like riding a bike. During that time I have been motoring lakes and rivers, some can get rough and uncomfotable in a 5500 pound boat. But whatever I get I need to have time for the learning curve before I head off in open waters.

Tearing into a boat would teach me a lot about that boat. Spending time fixing while sailing is a good idea, as both the boat and I get better prepaired prior to heading out.

Getting one ready to go now means I have much less work to do, it doesn't get me on the open water now since I'm not ready to go.

Maybe a better way is to get a trailer boat, sail, start the loop from here later on and trade up along the way. If I got a better boat, marketable, I could trade it and get something back, then continue with a larger boat requiring less practice at that helm. Not sure the gf would be nuts about starting off on a small boat in hopes of finding a better one!
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Old 17-12-2012, 07:58   #57
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Yrvind! How can you forget a hero....geeez!

Her ya go, a trailer sailer:





There really is a lot to be said for small super boats, not so comfortable but the adventure is certainly on steriods!
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Old 17-12-2012, 09:17   #58
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Quote:
What ever the boat ends up being, on the loop it will be motored more than it is sailed...if it is sailed at all. It may end up as a Terminal Trawler, a Strawler, a sailboat converted for power, losing the mast all together....I know, that's a sin. But, my first choice is to keep the option to sail.

whatever you do dont remove the mast, a sailboat without a mast is a nasty , snap roll, sort of nastiness.

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Old 17-12-2012, 10:33   #59
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

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A boat 60 miles away isn't that much fun after awhile. Hauling a large boat isn't alot of fun either, but it beats the expenses of the alternative and at least you can go in the backyard and mess with it.
I understand your pain on that one. I am in Vancouver and my boat is moored in Squamish. Its an hour and a half to get to it.

Getting a trailerable sailboat though means you're not getting much boat to start with - no fixed keel, strange ballast arrangement (ie. prone to failure) - and if you get a fixer-upper you may find you whittle away in your backyard and when you drop it in the water and find a leak you've got 60 miles to drive back to try to figure out how to fix it.

It was suggested that you get the MacGregor earlier in the thread, IMO that is the best way for you to go to meet your needs. You can take down the mast, add and remove ballast, trailer it, and under main motor power it can go pretty quick, you can pop up the sails and fill the ballast and sail around if you like.

Although its not a fantastic powerboat and not a fantastic sailboat either, it seems to be the only boat out there that meets your particular needs. Unfortunately, not particularly cheap boats... but if I were you I'd take a ready to sail MacGregor in good shape over a fixer upper any day - you'd probably save money over the long haul with the MacGregor over the rebuild.

On the plus side, they look nice out of the box so your girlfriend will likely not say "ick" and refuse to set foot in the thing. :-)
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Old 17-12-2012, 12:59   #60
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Goboatingnow, (I can see you're an advocate of buying and hitting the water, LOL) yes, these modoifications are not as easy as tossing the mast and rigging off. The design of the boat will dictae what balast is need, some fixed keels need to be trimmed and you may also need to agjust for it's lwl to have a level ride. It takes some trials to get it right. You also don't need to overpower the boat, you won't be going any faster, some additional power, say a 20hp running at half throttle is ok and can give more power if needed like heading against currents or rough stuff but you won't be adding speed beyond the boat's hull speed. Not commenting here to inform anyone here as much as to let you guys know I won't be doing that. I have gotten information on such mods from a guy who has done them and a couple N/As who say address it when the boat is selected.

That square stern lends itself more to powering than one running to a canoe stern for example.

The Lancer 27 is an outboard motorsailor developed prior to the MacGreggor X and M. I think there is still a Lancer 27 on Yacht World and I've seen them powered with 115hp (saw a MacGreggor M with 100 hp) and IMO such power is fine for skiing and pulling water toys but not really for cruising.

The Lancer is a much heavier boat too, you can't press the cabin sides in with your hand. Seems the Lancers being older than the M-26X are holding values much better the M-26X as those prices are falling, I guess especially with the newer M series that can take more than the suggested 50hp.

I sat in the head of the 26X, I couldn't close the door to conduct business, a little tight, but it is nice with an all wetted surface area.
The one I was on had an ice chest no fridge a small sink and a spot for a stove. I liked the touch of tile on the favtory counter. The dinette was comfortable and large enough for a real dinner for two, maybe 3, 4 can but watch sitting next to a lefty!

I really like the water balast so you can lighten the load for the road.

I don't know if the member here, SailorG, is the same SailorG from these parts but he was a dealer who introduced me to the Mac in about 95. The chainplates are attached to the deck and the deck was not attached for blue waters according to the factory. Rommy for two but not to live on, at least by us. An engineer I spoke to years ago at the Mac factory suggested that if I needed to run to the Bahams or off shore to look for another boat, he mentioned a Flicka. The trailers that go with them are lacking a bit too fine for heading to the lake but not a cross country hauler IMO.

As to the project side, I'd like a hard dodger and fill in the aft with a camper top, I can see some A/C someplace too so there would be a genset. So, I'm sorta looking for a boat that has decent lines at the combings to the cabin top that can take a dodger, keeps me warmer and dryer, maybe cooler too. The squareish lines of the Luger fit, but it's not the only one, I can build to curves as well. At least this is a goal but I don't need it off the bat to go.

In hot rods from years ago we'd say the is no substitute for cubic inches, I'd think the same applies to a cruising boat, the more room the better, but that only goes to the size of boat that can be safely operated single handedly by myself, while the gf can drive the car, she makes me nervous driving, I can just imagine heading into a crowed marina, not saying she wouldn't get better either. I doubt I want to go bigger than 34'. You may find me talking about a 56' Willard trawler style here, but I cam to the realization quickly that a big boat is not for me. All that to say I need as much room as I can pack into that smaller length and hopefully be able to tow it without restrictive permits, I don't mind a day time only permit, I just don't want escorts and all the rest you get into with a 12' beam. Currently my tow vehicle is an F-150, rather limited too. I'm not sur I wouldn't need a bigger truck with that Luger!

As I mentioned up there, my real restriction is my location, not being close to all the deals, there is a real logistical problem in keeping with my time line. I know sellers are more hopeful in the spring and egar in the winter, at least notherly of me.

I know I'm asking a lot, but geeez, I've already dropped the bike and most likely the dogs, I'd say getting under 30' will cause a serious reevaluation, like going alone on a 20'er or a jet ski and buzzing the loop...LOL!
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