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Old 14-12-2012, 08:01   #31
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Consider a production boat like the Catalina 27. You can get one pretty much ready to go for 10k. Have you considered buying a boat from the great lakes and starting from there? Fresh water and long winters make for boats in good condition.
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Old 14-12-2012, 09:03   #32
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Boatman61, that has real merit, some things can be done while out there and in reality, I'd bet my projects would never end. A slide out cutting board for the galley would be nice! I have been on the Mac 26X, it could be done certainly but not by me I don't think, now if it were the 65, well, my plans would change LOL.

Ohdrinkboy, I was just searching the great lakes region! Couple of boats, built when I was in highschool, lol, one looks pretty nice!

27' would be fine for me and the dog, with my gf, 30' looks to be the minimum, unless the Almighty sent me a catamaran!

I could trick out a 27'er if it were just me, like the Watkins, Lancer or Capital Gulf pilothouse types. How about a 25' Fisher! Nice, but tough to liveaboard.
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Old 14-12-2012, 09:46   #33
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Likely that every bit of boat project is within your capabilities......and theirin lies the trap!........it's the number of things that need (or you simply want) to do that catches yer out. The list be longer if you want the result done "right".
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Old 14-12-2012, 09:52   #34
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I love this line,

"It's December, I'm not going anywhere until the end of the summer at the earliest, so there is time."

Boatman, as usual has it nailed. Forget project or Bristol - get a boat that will sail safely and worry about the details on the road. The timeline you mention above would be a normal timeframe to get a new boat and skipper ready for its first real passagemaking. Don't even think you can do any real project boats and sail in that timeframe.

Either you want to go now or you want to go later, that is the first decision. If now then follow boatmans advice, if later then you have more options.
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Old 14-12-2012, 10:12   #35
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

The Loop has been done on jet skis.

That Luger will be able to do it, and the price is in your range.
Don't put too much into it, just make it workable and go.

When you finish, you'll know more about what you really want/need, and you can sell the Luger and get something that really fits your needs.

Don't over-think all this, or you'll never go.
Get something and do it!

Just my 2.



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Old 14-12-2012, 12:57   #36
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

As I've advised many times before. If you want to sail then buy a boat that can be put in the water and sailed immediately. It is a buyer's market and there are bargains galore. With a little cleaning and spruce up you can have a nice boat gotten cheaply. Learn to live with a production boat and don't change it drastically if you ever want to sell it.
If you like projects and rebuilds then buy a project boat but you'll spend more time and lots more money rebuilding to your satisfaction.
Lugers kitboats were made for people who wanted to build their own. Each builder made decisions as to quality matching their skills. Each boat was made differently in quality in other words.
Good luck in your decision.
kind regards,
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Old 14-12-2012, 14:48   #37
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

David, since my last post I made it through 18 pages of your Refurbishing old boats! Very good information and great thread!

Like you, I don't mind a work boat finish, but a nice, clean work boat. The Luger would warrant a little better finish. As you say, my wants may get me off course and thinking I can could lead to troubles, especially financial, over building. It is what it is, I won't be turning a VW into a Rolls either.

Foolishsailor, I agree with Boatman61 as well, much can be done on the run, it may help pass a rainy day!

Dsmatern, absolutely! A couple college girls did it on an 18' open runabout too. I don't think either went the lower mississippi route but the ten-tom that is more civilized.

I think you are right and that is what I was thinking as well.

While the Luger is homely to many, I'm use to power boats so her stern is still looking good to me, I can build off of that as I mentioned. So far from what I have found, they are not bad boats at all.....depending on who did the work.

Skipper, I have not seen the boat yet, so much remains to be seen, but I would track down the builder and have a conversation. The most important thing to me would be how the deck was attached to the hull and where the ply core was pierced or if it was attached in fiberglass.

You guys are great! I wish I could go to Washington and buy a motorsailor up there, it would clean me out for shipping and I can't move up there.

A great deal in Fl doesn't do me much good in Mo.


As David mentioned in his thread, I'll be jumping on that deck (sorta) and tapping away to see if the hull and deck are solid.

Dsmatern, and all, The motion comfort ratio of the Luger I found was 24.48, a very respectable number, if you believe in such, compared to much more expensive boats, Morgans, Island Packets, Bentys and others, similar to Allieds and Albins as well. It's a Ed Monk design, probably not his best work but I trust the reputation of the designer.

It might be that the windows could be put in, set the mast and rigging and sail her. Drop the motor are take off. That is possible, I don't know. I don't see anything inside keeping her on the hard.

A trailer ($,$$$) has to be in the deal, I can't leave it there and work on it. They will at least need to deliver it to my dock in the back yard, most would call it a concrete slab out there. (Either someone covered a pool or there was an out building there at some time)

The more I ponder and look at it, the more my confidence goes up with the interior. Not sure how I'd finish it, but I like white beadboard and I just happen to have about ten sheets left over from another project....changes were made, I don't over buy that much!

I guess I'll see it, if it's solid, has all the parts, motor runs, can be sailed now, it may be the one. 30' trailerable, really a shoal draft, beachable and good tankage.....that should do it!

Now, my Subaru developed a really bad clunking sound on the right front wheel today, gotta get that fixed and then I'll run up the road, about 50 miles and see the beast. See if she smiles at me!

What do ya think?

PS. And from Too Late To Start to now, I think I'm moving right along! LOL
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Old 15-12-2012, 03:56   #38
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

I keep forgetting about that thread - but pops back up now and again .

Glad you found it of interest. I started the thread not to spout my views , but to capture the experiances of others into one place. For me the value comes from the common themes coming from multiple sources (folks!) and their projects / circumstances........including those who succeed, gave up and are (still!) ploughing on.
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Old 15-12-2012, 04:35   #39
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Hope you don't mind me plugging the Voyager in there as a canidate to refurbishing to see what the rehabbers think.

While I have never done a boat I'm confident I can. I need to research materials, I don't want mold or mildew issues, easy to clean and wipe down, bright, lighting (LED a dimmer might be nice reducing draw and set the mood (lol)), I'd like A/C, heat and hot/cold water, that would be up town for me.

As I am, what ever I get it will likely have interior projects, especially since I'm not buying a new boat. Feel free to point me in the right direction.
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Old 15-12-2012, 13:03   #40
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Take a good look at rigging and sails. The costs add up considerably. Hull to deck join is a good place to look but if it is done with steel instead of stainless screws you'll have to redo it. Pop rivets and voids are not good. You can always glass it over if it is leaking but that's just more work and cost.
Check the condition of the ply bulkheads at their base inside the hull. Standing water could have started dry rot there. Check how the compression post's condition is. The base of the mast has to be supported all the way to the bottom of the hull.
Good luck
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Old 16-12-2012, 06:46   #41
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff S. View Post
I think I'm the poster child of the Rebuild end of the continuum...currently in the eleventh year of a two-year refit. I got myself a "bargain boat fixer-upper", for a relative song ($10K for a 59-footer), and as wise souls have warned above, I ended up pretty much gutting her and starting over. Perhaps I'm just too obstinate for my own good, but I never once considered ditching things and cutting my losses. I simply adjusted my goal to a longer-range scenario whereby I'd end up with a virtually brand-new boat that was exactly what I've always wanted, that can take me anywhere in the world when I semi-retire (figuring ~10 years from now). That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Proof of my pig-headedness can be seen in all its glory in the Member's Gallery.

Will it turn out to be a financial win, or even wash? Nope. When I'm done I could have bought a brand-new Cherubini, Oyster, Swan or Hinckley for about the same coin. But she'll be "my" boat in every way, and nearly every minute detail of her will be the product of my designs and dreams. I feel like I've karmically earned her in a way that I wouldn't have by writing a monthly check to a bank. She comes complete with a story. And, I've come to adopt Trinidad as my second home which would never have occurred otherwise. So, I'm at peace with how things shook out. I'm crossing fingers, toes and eyes that I've got enough years left on this planet to get to actually wander it once she's done, such that I don't regret having spent 11 years+ getting there.

So, I'm an extreme case...but I'll second what others have counseled:
1) You don't buy a boat, new or used, to make money. Most boat brokers I know don't even make much of that. You buy it to fulfill a dream.
2) Decide where you want to go and when first, then find the combination of age, build, design, creature comforts and price that fits that plan. I personally have an aversion to debt and that has certainly slowed down my cruising timetable; you may have a different take on boat loans, and as a result you'll probably go sailing sooner.
3) Take full advantage of the research done by some knowledgeable authors. For example, check out John Kretschmer's "The Best Used Boat Notebook" The Best Used Boat Notebook: From the pages of Sailing Magazine, a new collection of detailed reviews of 40 used boats plus a look at 10 great used boats to sail around the world: Jack Kretschmer: 9781574092349: Amazon.com: Books John really knows his stuff.
4) Every sailboat, no matter its vintage is some degree of "project". Stuff will always need fixing, maintaining, adapting, re-doing, re-re-doing, and re-re-re-doing. Maybe powerboaters enjoy something like the "new car" experience at first, but I'll bet that becomes less true as time goes on too. Fix your face for a lifestyle of fetching tools and opening wallets in perpetuity.

Good luck with your decision process. You'll get out there one way or another if you really wanna!

Cheers,
Geoff
A new Swan 57 would be around $2,000,000. Did you really spend that much on a refit?
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Old 16-12-2012, 07:05   #42
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Wavewacker:

Honestly, in that price range and that size range, you ought to be able to find a boat with functional sails, rigging, engine, and windows . Look for something that mainly needs cosmetic work: paint, upholstery, varnish, etc. Be patient and negotiate tough.

You should be able to put the boat in the water, or sail it away from its marina, in short order. Then you can scrape, paint, varnish and sew as you go.

Have fun!
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Old 16-12-2012, 07:27   #43
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

The absolute best deals and successes that I have seen with "fixer-uppers" have been with boats that were near new or in pristine condition, but had suffered one drastic event that caused their market value to be greatly decreased. One of these was a vessel that had it's engine run to it's "death" while overheated and another had suffered a galley fire. Both were purchased low and brought back with a cost advantage along with some hard work.
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Old 16-12-2012, 11:58   #44
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
In the current market, is it still a good thing to buy a project boat and redo it to your needs and wants or take the compromise route and buy an existing boat reday to go?
You dont seem to indicate your level of experience with boats in your initial post. Given the way you worded your question I would assume that you are largely a novice boater, if you have any experience at all (mea culpa if I'm wrong, I dont mean it as insulting in any way).

If you are inexperienced at boating I would shelve any idea of getting a fixerupper at all. Any reasonably priced used boat is going to need some work anyways, even if it's just customization to suit your needs. If it's sea worthy, sails well, and has everything it needs to just get up and go, spend the bit extra and go for it.

I couldn't imagine being new to boating, getting a "new to me" boat and spending forever and a day working on it hoping to take it out. It might be a fun thing for some, but without actually being on the water nor much experience out boating it would be easy to just over-toy-up and blow a bunch of money that didn't need to be spent only to end up realizing that you need to blow a bunch of money more to make the boat functional for you.

A good rule of thumb I've heard in buying a new boat - expect to spend double the purchase price customizing it and getting it outfitted. This doesnt even include new fangled toys like radar or sensors etc.

I spent $4000 on my boat. It was ready to sail and she sails well for her age.

Then...

$200 on insurance. $100 on a boat operators license. $300 on a dinghy (a cheap one). $250 on crab traps and line. $150 on salmon tackle, $50 on a fishing license for all fish. $400 on food and boat-friendly sundries like a boat spice kit, boat friendly salt, pepper, bottled water, blabla list goes on and on. $200 on a BBQ for the boat, extra propane lines, etc. Battery charger, $100. Proper inflating life jackets so I actually wear them, $150 on a great deal. $60 per charge for the lifejackets so I have extra. Boat friendly and sized pots, pans, coffee pot, cups, glasses, shot glasses, blankets, flag pole.

It was amazing to see I had blown through around $8,000 on little neccesities. The boat even came with the downriggers, charts, extra lifejackets and a bunch of other stuff.

Now if the boat was a fixer-upper I have no idea how much I would have blown. As it stands I still want to replace my halyards, a lot of my lines, etc. to make them smoother and prettier to look at, color code them. Just buying new mooring lines last year for when I was cruising (to leave the mooring lines that came with the boat where they were on the dock) cost $200.

I've heard a few folks talk about buying a dirt cheap boat and fixing it up. A small subset of people might actually pull it off because they enjoy the fixing more than the sailing. But I'd wager that most people who undertake such a thing end up out of sailing and cruising, down quite a bunch of money, dumping their boat for pennies on the dollar and despite a ton of work and dollars, didnt end up on the water.

There are dirt cheap used boats that sail like demons out there - get one of those. Fix it up over time - between your sailing escapades! :-)
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Old 16-12-2012, 13:33   #45
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Re: Best Way To Go: Rebuild or Ready to Go

Delux, thanks for the post by Geoff with the link, looks like good material and I'll look into that. I did look at the list and had already considered many listed. Just as to my liking, the Kodiak 26 is a favorite and one is listed in WA state...

Tia Bu that would be the goal, besides something that was ready to go and already shined!

Capt Force, I looked at (on the web) a storm damaged boat missing its lower stern basically, too much for me. I also looked a fire sale, way too much damage for me.

A man has to know his limitations! (Thank you Dirty Harry)

My biggest limitation is location. My son recently purchased a 50+ foot Sundancer in FA, on the internet, had a survey and others inspected it as well. The broker assured him that it was ready to go. He spent just over $8,000 having it shipped to Texas, across MS and LA to the DFW area! Then he had transmission problems.....$$,$$$!

I have concluded that the shipping estimates on brokerage sites or those shipping links are not telling the whole story, far from it in fact. They don't include costs of permits, escort services, lane closings, lifting power lines if needed or crossing other roadway issues that could be assessed, like fines. At the lake, a 100+ ft. houseboat was finished/built on an abandoned state park and splashed, they were fined thousands for the use as well as roadway violations and the owner said it was cheaper than the alternatives!

Such doesn't take into consideration of some moving companies or transporters that hit you with hidden fees that have doubled estimates to be paid prior to delivery, it is truly legalized highway robbery. A one time user of such services has a hard time performing due diligence on a cut rate mover, so it can be a crapshoot.

If you don't live near a pleasure boat meca and have to travle 600, 800 or 1500 miles just to go look, bring your checkbook. I'm about 65 miles east of Kansas, darn close the population center of the country about 40 miles away and about 110 miles west of the Mississippi. I don't know if I could be further away from ocean capable sailboats!

Now add to the equation that 15k for a purchase price (due to the budgeted 50k for my little venture). Travel expenses, motels, meals, etc. would need to come from those funds set aside for any purchase, or rehab depending on condition. Assuming I had a good lead on a nicer boat and I fly to, oh say, Miami, what happens if that deal goes bust, for any reason, like the seller dropping dead and having to wait on estate issues? I'd stay for awhile with a sence of greater urgency to buy, might find something and might not! The longer one stays on budgeted funds the cheaper the purchase price has to be.

Additionally, if I find a lonesome Swan or Alberg, 10, 11, 12 ft beamed boat where do I put it? I hit on transporting issues. Am I leaving then, say in January on my expeditionary travels....no. Not sure if heading up the nations sewer line with a wood or fiberglass boat 600 miles is a good idea. (Some may not realize that the big muddy has flood debris along the banks. You can have submerged telephone poles headed down river for a torpedo bow shot!)

Now, you're mooring a boat. Everyone knows those expenses better than I. Will they allow repairs in the slip, or does ut need to be hauled out? I suppose sitting on the hard is cheaper storage than any slip but there is storage. Does an out-of-towner live on the boat while repairs are made, is that allowed? Borrow, beg or buy tools? I could bring some if I knew what to bring, but that's if I had driven down there.

So, here I am living near Miami, working on a boat, sending checks back home to pay expenses and paying living expenses at my temporary home. How long is this rehab on this great fixer upper? Time would be money. The longer one stays the less that remains in the budget for your cruising.

I'm sure Miami would be fun, my gf is from Miami but no relaitives remain there. I suppose I'd have to head back home upon completion or at some point and dispose of back home property, tie up lose ends and head back to the boat. How much longer should a newbie hang around and learn the operations before taking off up the eastern ICW?

I envy those who live near the ocean and the opportunties they have in getting a great deal on a cruiser.

I'm not making excuses so much as pointing out the limitations facing most people who want to "save" money getting a fixer upper and go cruising.

More on topic, the selection of a boat to re-do will largely depend on your location and market, your budget not only for the boat, but also repair costs, travel and temporary living expenses.

So, if that Luger is the most livable size, fits the budget, is within the repair capabilites of a buyer, is easily transported to your own boat yard for repairs, fits the intended purpose and is the only girl at the dance, seems to me its a good choice.

The risks:

It's a kit boat, as mentioned above its abilities will depend on who did the work to date. I think that can be determined through due diligence, inspections and talking to previous owners. The hull and deck are probably not in any more question than any other boat built in '85, it's how those parts were put together, the quality of the build.

It was designed by Ed Monk, a reputable designer, it may not be his best work, but I'd bet it's not the water hazard some have splashed. Its motion comfort ratio, if you believe in such, is 24.48 matching or better than many well known and proven boats, even larger ones. As to the design, if Matt Layden can sail a ply/glass 13'er and cruise the eastern ICW and Bahamas, I'd like to think that I could do the same with a 30' Luger with some seasoning for myself.

The question that remains for the old salts here, considering the pictures provided, is this a doable project, having a better idea of what would need to be done and the costs as well as the costs of preparing the boat?

I may be off on the time necessary for repairs, how many hours do you see?

Considering customary fabrics and materials for a boat like this one, what would you estmate for the interior? I'd cover the exposed ply with veneree, oak or maple, not teak. I'd sand the sole and finsih it. I have some (plenty) bathroom proof white beadboard and wood trim of various sizes for the ceiling. No hardware on hand. Would that be acceptable for the finish work?

What would a customary electrical system for 12v and 110v be for her? Assuming it needs to be wired, I believe there is an existing pannel, I'd get new breakers/fuses.

The head and plumbing are suppose to be good, I'd like pressurized water and a water heater, any ideas on what that expense might be? It has, or should have sufficient water tankage as well as for fuel, another fuel tank may be in order to extend its motoring range.

It appears there is no gas lines or lpg tank for the galley or heater!

Let's not consider hidden defects, at least from the pics. Not that they may not exist but that it would be pure speculation and that exists with any boat.....but, if anyone knows of specific issues with the Luger Voyager, by all means!

What's your best guesstimate?

And thank you for your input!
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