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Old 05-01-2013, 18:44   #61
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That thing about the best is a relative one. For me a good one has to sail well and many are just motorsailors at least in light wind, god interior or not.

There are some modern ones that have the same performances of normal modern cruisers and one of them, that is only about 10 years old, that can be bought for not much money, is well built and sails well is the Dehler 41DS. The boat can be sailed from inside with a joystick commanding the autopilot or with one of the new wireless remote controls.

http://www.charlieandbetty.com/seven...416-1-700w.jpg

Seventh Heaven, Dehler 41 DS - The history

Description of the Dehler 41 Fuga

6 Dehler 41 DS boats for sale | Boats.com

Definitely not a true pilothouse. DS stands for "Deck Saloon". Any boat can be steered from inside or anywhere else for that matter. I require good visibility over the bow, and a full inside steering station that works when electrics have failed, with a wheel and captains chair, to consider it a pilothouse.
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:31   #62
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

+ 1 for minarets answer!! No wheel or chair, kills it for me!! I want all my stuff right at hand with my radar right handy! lol All it takes in our new to us pilot house is a small clockwide eye ball look to see all our electronics! and still see way over the bow, and the sails to !! In fact all thats in there is what ya need !! no bunks or galley and such.
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Old 05-01-2013, 21:19   #63
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

This is not really what the original poster is asking about but here are a couple of pics of my goofy setup. This is definitely not the Best Pilot house arrangement as the one and only helm is a little awkward while steering from inside house. Works great however when standing out on deck - wheel in left hand, engine control in right.

Steve
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:15   #64
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Definitely not a true pilothouse. DS stands for "Deck Saloon". Any boat can be steered from inside or anywhere else for that matter. I require good visibility over the bow, and a full inside steering station that works when electrics have failed, with a wheel and captains chair, to consider it a pilothouse.
I agree with him, except in what regards the definition to be viciously biased.


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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Today boats are driven in many ways. A wheel in the house in no longer required to be a pilot house.

My own and viciously biased definition is that on the pilothouse boat you can actually drive the boat from the pilothouse. RS and DS boats are a definitely different batch and many of them are actually very difficult to comfortably control from the RS/DS - unless one likes to stand very erect in an empty space without handholds and with halogen light beaming right into their eyes.

...
Fact is that even on ships wheels are being substituted by joysticks and I am quite sure a mechanical wheel is a thing of the past in what regards pilot houses/deck salons. Some of the ones that are made today still offer a wheel as an option, for old times sake, but nobody that is buying them is having that option.

Having a mechanical wheel in a pilot house or deck-saloon means to have to resource to a more complicated less reliable hydraulic system that will give a dead feeling on the wheel. Autopilots today are very reliable and since they out perform in much wind-vanes everybody is using them as a base to steer the boat, specially on not sportive boats like the ones we are talking about. Off course the chair, the table and having everything at hand is important.

On the Dehler 41DS you have all that and also a boat with a nice interior with a sailing decent performance too.







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Old 06-01-2013, 05:55   #65
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

This is my preference.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:51   #66
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Fact is that even on ships wheels are being substituted by joysticks
Er, no. I make my living steering ships and have done so for over 30 years. There is often a joystick but it is for steering in NFU (Non-followup Mode) which is a fallback method used when there is a malfunction and the other two modes are not working. Regular ordinary follow-Up steering is done with a wheel, and is the usual method when hand steering. I have never ever seen a ship with no wheel. Many tugs have no wheel, but ships still have a wheel. It is not 7 feet tall anymore, since no leverage is needed. The typical ships wheel now has no spokes and is around 11" diameter. A few look like airplane yokes but most are regular circular wheels. The other mode, the one used most of the time at sea, is autopilot.

Steering can also be done locally, from After Steering. That is where the actual pumps and valves and rams are located and there are usually a couple of different modes available. This is often done with a valve handle or push buttons and is rather awkward. Steering from After Steering is only done when there is something really really wrong. Finally, the rudder can often be moved manually with no power at all but this is not for steering. You could not actually steer this way because it takes too long and takes too much labor to move the rudder even a degree. This method is used for centering the rudder for towing or salvage purposes.

Anyway, yes, ships still have wheels.

Pilothouse or Salon steering of a sailboat does not HAVE to be hydraulic. There is no reason not to use a similar system to that used on large shrimp boats. A chain drives a jumper shaft that runs aft to the lazarette, where chain or cables are used to transfer the horizontal rotation of the shaft to a quadrant. On some owner built boats, a truck rear end is used instead of a quadrant. Anyway, the jumper shaft system is quite responsive and you can tell immediately when one side has caught a little mud, or a door has flipped, etc just from the feedback of the wheel. If I were building a large sailboat I would use that system rather than hydraulic, just to keep everything simple and mechanical. I am probably going to add a pilothouse to my boat and wheel steering, but the distance will be small so I will just use chain and cables from wheel to quadrant.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:59   #67
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

"Fact is that even on ships wheels are being substituted by joysticks and I am quite sure a mechanical wheel is a thing of the past in what regards pilot houses/deck salons. Some of the ones that are made today still offer a wheel as an option, for old times sake, but nobody that is buying them is having that option."

I must respectfully disagree. Small sailboats are not large ships. The systems are more reliable than in the past, but still not bulletproof. Tales of failed electronics are found in various threads threads on CCF. So, I agree with Minaret and Bob and Connie - a true Pilothouse to me needs a mechanical wheel.

Of course, all of this is opinion, which means that one view is neither right nor wrong, but that all are available for people considering which way to go!

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:52   #68
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
... I have never ever seen a ship with no wheel. Many tugs have no wheel, but ships still have a wheel.... The typical ships wheel now has no spokes and is around 11" diameter. A few look like airplane yokes but most are regular circular wheels. The other mode, the one used most of the time at sea, is autopilot.
.....
That is pretty much what I wanted to say. When I was referring to joysticks I was thinking about the airplane yoke controls. A 11'' wheel for a ship is much closer to a joy stick than to a true 7' wheel that they used to have and the only reason it is still shaped as a very small wheel has to do with tradition, not function or necessity (that's why airplane yokes are used also). In fact the same thing is happening with cars. Look at a F1 "wheel" for instance or the joysticks several brands are testing. Where a better and more precise control is needed, on Tug boats they have joysticks.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:00   #69
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Originally Posted by westsail374 View Post
"Fact is that even on ships wheels are being substituted by joysticks and I am quite sure a mechanical wheel is a thing of the past in what regards pilot houses/deck salons. Some of the ones that are made today still offer a wheel as an option, for old times sake, but nobody that is buying them is having that option."


I must respectfully disagree. Small sailboats are not large ships. The systems are more reliable than in the past, but still not bulletproof. Tales of failed electronics are found in various threads threads on CCF. So, I agree with Minaret and Bob and Connie - a true Pilothouse to me needs a mechanical wheel.

Of course, all of this is opinion, which means that one view is neither right nor wrong, but that all are available for people considering which way to go!

I agree with you about opinion and more, also in what regards one liking more to have an interior wheel than not. A bigger wheel then the one that is used on a ship inside a small sailboat is a big negative factor on space management and polivalence but even so one can prefer that option.

Regarding a cruising boat and a problem on the autopilot, if you are really cruising, not been able to steer the boat from the inside is the least of your problems since you can steer the boat from outside.

Unless you are motoring if your autopilot is not working and if you are solo sailing or just with your wife a boat without autopilot can really be a pain in the ass.
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:58   #70
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is pretty much what I wanted to say. When I was referring to joysticks I was thinking about the airplane yoke controls. A 11'' wheel for a ship is much closer to a joy stick than to a true 7' wheel that they used to have and the only reason it is still shaped as a very small wheel has to do with tradition, not function or necessity (that's why airplane yokes are used also). In fact the same thing is happening with cars. Look at a F1 "wheel" for instance or the joysticks several brands are testing. Where a better and more precise control is needed, on Tug boats they have joysticks.
A ship's wheel is still shaped like a wheel because that is what works best with a followup steering system. If it was all about tradition, wheels would all still at least have spokes and be made of brass, bronze, and wood. However, few are. Actual mechanical steering of ships via chain and jumper shaft went out in the 1890's or so, when the telemotor system was invented. What is telemotor control for steering gear ? How the system works for a brief explanation. Modern helm systems are basically just electrifications of this system, with the added inclusion of a gyro repeater and autopilot logic. A good helmsman in pilotage waters can generally maintain course within .2 degrees with a wheel. A joystick? Not a chance. Another advantage of a wheel is having a direct readout of rudder order. The ordered rudder angle is different from the actual rudder angle which is displayed in the rudder angle indicator. The ordered rudder angle is where the rudder is supposed to be when it finally gets there. The actual rudder angle is where it is at that moment. Obviously there will be considerable lag and the helmsman must be able to put the wheel right away at a given angle without inching it bit by bit as the rudder slowly moves to the intended angle. Can't do that with a joystick.

Tugs don't need precise control. They need quick and responsive control. Also a wheel is something else to avoid when moving about in a small pilothouse of a tugboat when docking a ship. Precise steering (as on a ship) calls for a wheel. Quick reaction (like on a ship assist tug) is best achieved with a joystick. Also joysticks on tugs, especially ship assist/docking tugs, commonly control an azimuthing drive, rather than a rudder. There are sound reasons for joystick-only systems on many tugs. Not so, for ships, and so the ship's wheel will be with us, until the day when we all have a chip in our heads and we can simply think a course or a rudder command and automatically transmit it to the helm.
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:37   #71
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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I think opinions are meaningless without a set of priorities and parameters, so this is my basic list for a good pilothouse design.

Good inside visibility, ergonomics and actual control from Pilothouse.
Large skylight so that I can monitor set of sail from inside
Efficient motor sailor, easily driven and sea-kindly
I would like to add some more to my own definition of a proper Pilothouse Sailboat

At the Inside Helm position:
  • Throttle controls for maneuvering, together with proper engine gauges and alarms.
  • Interior design must have ability to maintain night vision, if off watch are in galley
  • Non Reflective piloting area
  • Clear-view or wiper for visibility in rain or spray.
  • Navigational tools set up to operate in low light conditions
  • Proper Red Light system at night
Polux’s photos of the Dehler 41DS are beautiful, but would be a challenge to keep pilot from being distracted at night.

For me, a pilothouse must be safe to operate in all conditions, 24 hrs a day, especially if you want to keep crew down below for safety reasons in nasty weather.

The Dutch builders of SG incorporated a roll-down Door that shuts off all light and most of the noise from Galley/Dinning Salon.

It is a great feature when running at night and also helps to quickly cool down Dining Salon/galley if you are using aircon forward of the Pilothouse.

Personally, if underway, I prefer to stand, but builder did install (under carpet) a large socket with cover plate to take a swivel helm chair.... Never bothered to use it!
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Old 06-01-2013, 13:14   #72
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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At the Inside Helm position:
[LIST][*]Throttle controls for maneuvering, together with proper engine gauges and alarms.
Funny, but I never thought about having proper engine gauges. Makes complete sense, but having seen a lot of inside steering, I haven't seen many with proper gauges.
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Old 06-01-2013, 13:34   #73
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Funny, but I never thought about having proper engine gauges. Makes complete sense, but having seen a lot of inside steering, I haven't seen many with proper gauges.
Mine sure has them. Where else would you put the gauges in a pilot house boat, out in the weather? I have all my gauges and electronics either in-dash or just above the pilot house windows. All the helmsman has to do to see the integrated chart plotter is look down six inches. Morse shifter and ignition too. All systems live much longer installed indoors out of the sun and rain. I like spending time in the pilot house so much, a picture of the front half is my avatar.
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Old 07-01-2013, 21:52   #74
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Mine sure has them. Where else would you put the gauges in a pilot house boat, out in the weather? I have all my gauges and electronics either in-dash or just above the pilot house windows. All the helmsman has to do to see the integrated chart plotter is look down six inches. Morse shifter and ignition too. All systems live much longer installed indoors out of the sun and rain. I like spending time in the pilot house so much, a picture of the front half is my avatar.
Would love to see more, the avatar is a bit small
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Old 07-01-2013, 22:06   #75
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Re: Best Pilothouse Sailboat?

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Would love to see more, the avatar is a bit small


Just click on the link under my avatar, where it says "Images:52" or something like that. I really need to get around to posting more recent interior shots, many changes have been made since then.
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