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Old 02-11-2014, 03:18   #31
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

I hate davits. They block vision aft, make jumping off the scoop next to impossible and I have seen too many of them develop serious structural issues on longer choppy passages. Older Lagoon default setup was known for that too. At least on a cat the scoops are not blocked.

I have sailed a boat with a garage in the transom. That was real convenient. Easy to stow and launch and out of sight / out of sun. Great design.

It is quite odd that with such huge volumes like Sense, there is no garage.

On small boats, a dinghy can be light and placing it anywhere is a breeze. I do it alone in any conditions. BUT as noted above: it almost always blocks the forward hatch and so is less than perfect. It also clutters the foredeck on a passage when you may want the space to fly and collect kites or just to sit there and take things in.

Some boats, e.g. Amels have poop/cabin area enough to stow a fine dinghy. It has to be upturned and the motor removed, sure. But this is way better than having the dink fore.

Well well.

b.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:44   #32
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a cat?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Storing the dinghy on the foredeck is extremely inconvenient. So much so I think only someone who hasn't lived on a boat long term could even ask the question.
I live on a boat 5 months a year, most of the time sailing and I would not want a boat hanging on the stern for balance reasons and for the exposure it is subjected in bad weather. I have a 41ft boat and i have no problems with the dinghy over the cockpit, or I should say over the deck since it is stored ahead of the mast and not over the cockpit.
This year I got unexpectedly a force 10 with steep very steep 6 to 8 meters waves with the top breaking and washing over the boat. The dinghy took it perfectly (only some small scratches on the bow. I hate to think what would have happened if I had it suspended on the back.

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First, you can only have a small dinghy.
You have to remove the outboard every time you stow the dinghy.
That is true and I admit that I have kept away from the beamier models to warrant a very comfortable passage on the side deck to the bow but the size I have is the size I would have anyway. It can take four with no problem and is perfect for two that is the size of the crew we have 95% of the time. I admit that others need or want a bigger one.

Regarding engine I row 90% of the time. I like that and help me to be in shape. I have chosen one that allows effective rowing. I have also a small engine and no problem at all to put it or take it from the dinghy (alone). I don't need a bigger one, I like the autonomy in fuel it gives (Less than 5 L of gasoline for the full season) and I am not in a hurry to go anywhere. It provides a huge torque that is able to drive the dinghy even with lots of wind and some sea.

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It's usually at least a two-person job to lift the dinghy using a halyard, then invert it for stowage.
Any safety gear, anchors etc kept in the dinghy has to be removed every time. Sooner or later this gear will be forgotten and left on the boat.
On many boats the dinghy needs to be lifted to allow access to the foredeck hatch.
No, I have no problem in putting it on the water and out of the water with a halyard (alone) or putting it inverted over the deck. In fact It takes me more time to conveniently secure it than to make all the rest. Sure, for doing this you cannot have one of those made in China that weight 40kg. I have a high performance boat and a high performance dinghy: It weights only 16kg at it proved to be strong: It has been used extensively for 3 years and it is like new.
Regarding the anchor for the dinghy I had one one for the dinghy on the previous boat, on this one I have not yet bought one. The truth is that we did almost never used it and that's why we did not bought one yet and even if we use one, it will be so rarely that it will never be a problem to forget it inside the dinghy (anyway I cannot see how that is possible because when invert it on the deck, the boat would fall on the deck with a big "clank")
Regarding obstructing the foredeck hatch that's true but not a problem when sailing (it would have to be closed anyway). While on anchor the dinghy is slightly pulled up with a halyard allowing the foredeck hatch to open at 60º. Good ventilation, enough light and gives shade in the summer. Anyway we stay on anchor most of the time and that means that when we arrive to a nice cove the dinghy goes out on the water.

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And, if you really feel the urge to sit in the sun, on a cat there's a huge foredeck to do it on. And it's not cluttered with an upturned dinghy.
Yes I believe that would be a problem in a cat even if we on the summer we are looking not to be on the sun but out of the sun.

Truly, my biggest disadvantage in what regards having the dinghy over the deck is an aesthetically one: The boat is so much nicer without it, but it does not improve (aesthetically) if it had it hanged on the back of the boat. To my eyes smaller yachts with a dinghy there look just plain ugly and out of proportion.
I would very much like to have a boat with a dinghy garage but even if there are some smaller ones that manage to have that, most only have the space for that over 50ft and that is just a too much big boat for my needs (to expensive too).

But as normally cat owners say that a 45ft cat corresponds in space (and money) to a 50/60ft monohull, that would not be a problem. if you, like me, think that is ugly to have a dinghy overt the deck, or hanged on the back, you can have it completely out of sight on a nice garage...better protected too. You have just to chose the right boat.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:01   #33
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
..
It is quite odd that with such huge volumes like Sense, there is no garage.
..b.
Yes, I would have preferred that too but they obviously think that the low interface with the cockpit/interior of the boat and Cockpit/water is a more desirable feature to most that will buy that boat. To have a dinghy garage you would have to have a higher cockpit and that would not only increased the height to the water but the difference of levels between the cockpit and the saloon. The relative small difference in height and the interface it allows, between the saloon and the cockpit is one of the main characteristics of the boat and I am sure one of the main on the design brief.

They know that most sailors that buy cruising boats will pass their nights at the marina on a port or at anchor with the dinghy on the water and as they are designing a boat that appeals to the bigger number they probably are right in thinking that the very nice interface between the Saloon and the deck is a more desirable feature for most. When you are on the marina you don'y see the dingy over the deck at the boat but you will enjoy the benefits that low cockpit offers.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:15   #34
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Yes, I would have preferred that too but they obviously think that the low interface with the cockpit/interior of the boat and Cockpit/water is a more desirable feature to most that will buy that boat. To have a dinghy garage you would have to have a higher cockpit and that would not only increased the height to the water but the difference of levels between the cockpit and the saloon. The relative small difference in height and the interface it allows, between the saloon and the cockpit is one of the main characteristics of the boat and I am sure one of the main on the design brief.
I was very surpised in looking at the Sense 43. Compared to, say, a Catalina 42, there is a LOT less space down below. This is understandable given this description of the design criteria, but it is rare to see a 42-43 footer with such a small saloon. Guess they made the boat to sail where it's warn and one spends the time in the cockpit.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:46   #35
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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I was very surpised in looking at the Sense 43. Compared to, say, a Catalina 42, there is a LOT less space down below. This is understandable given this description of the design criteria, but it is rare to see a 42-43 footer with such a small saloon. Guess they made the boat to sail where it's warn and one spends the time in the cockpit.
I suppose you are talking about the two cabin version of the Catalina 42:


Yest that has more space on the saloon/galley area but the second cabin is less wide, less agreeable and the Catalina has a lot less storage space.

But area is not only what define living space it is also the light, the cosiness of the space and its functionality. In what regards that that version of the Catalina 42 was not particularly good with lots of space free that serve no purpose and a settee away from the table and in an odd position regarding the other. Why so much siting places on a 2 cabin boat?

On the Catalina 42 with 3 cabins the saloon interior has less lost space but looks too dense. It is about the same size than the one of the Sense 43, that is a bit more beamy.


But most o all the interior from the Sense is better designed with much more light (that give a space sensation) and with a more agreeable distribution, with a big TV/Video set just in front of the seating space of the saloon. It has less seating space but who needs to seat 10 on a two cabin boat?




Here a virtual visit to the Sense 43 saloon:
http://www.sunbirdyachts.eu/beneteau..._sense_43_.swf

Regarding the average 42/43 ft cruising boats the dimensions of Sense saloon are average. The space for the big cockpit comes from not having any cabin on the back of the boat. If you say to me that then the saloon is the same size of one of a 42/43 ft boat with 3 cabins I will agree, but many of those on the versions with two cabins don't make a saloon substantially bigger, just make a second cabin bigger and a head bigger.

Anyway you are right in what regards the loss of a 3rd cabin, they used all the space for a bigger cockpit and for storage space. Most cruisers sail on the summer and while on anchor they live more on the cockpit, enjoying the scenery, than on the interior of the boat. In that regard the Sense makes sense giving more space to the area more used
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:08   #36
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Old 02-11-2014, 12:20   #37
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Maybe Cat sailors are fatter and less active than the rest of us, instead of doing a little work that might benefit them, they have another beer. LOL
And maybe we prefer using our brains.

Anyway, getting back to the original question - while they've tried, no the Sense hasn't managed to duplicate the advantages of a cat. As stated, there's no dinghy storage, no shade over the cockpit, also it draws too much, can't take the bottom etc etc.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:35   #38
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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And maybe we prefer using our brains.

Anyway, getting back to the original question - while they've tried, no the Sense hasn't managed to duplicate the advantages of a cat. As stated, there's no dinghy storage, no shade over the cockpit, also it draws too much, can't take the bottom etc etc.
Not for a minute do I believe that a died in the wool Cat guy would change to a mono BUT some of these new mono's are going to keep the mono guy from moving over to a Cat. Women drive many of these decisions(dah!) so it will be interesting to see how the market moves over the next few years. Its kinda hard to believe they can make Cats any bigger than they do now without really degrading performance, the mono's might even grow some more although they are looking really bulky these days.
I don't have very much experience with Cats but I really like the main saloon area and the cock pits, I'm not so crazy about the sleeping areas. I also found them really noisy when sailing offshore compared to a mono hull.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:37   #39
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a cat?

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I don't know about that. Why do so many monohulls have absolutely no provision for dinghy storage? .
Because there's no good way to do it on a mono less than about 75 feet. It's an inherent disadvantage of monos and a big PITA. There was a long thread on it recently.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:48   #40
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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And maybe we prefer using our brains.

Anyway, getting back to the original question - while they've tried, no the Sense hasn't managed to duplicate the advantages of a cat. As stated, there's no dinghy storage, no shade over the cockpit, also it draws too much, can't take the bottom etc etc.
Yes about brains...if a cat as so many advantages over a monohull why cruisers continue buying monohulls on a much bigger scale? Wait I know the answer: They don't use their brains, only cat sailors seems to be smart enough for that
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:58   #41
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a cat?

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Because there's no good way to do it on a mono less than about 75 feet. It's an inherent disadvantage of monos and a big PITA. There was a long thread on it recently.
75 feet????????????have a look:

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Old 02-11-2014, 13:15   #42
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Yes about brains...if a cat as so many advantages over a monohull why cruisers continue buying monohulls on a much bigger scale? Wait I know the answer: They don't use their brains, only cat sailors seems to be smart enough for that
FFS, are you defensive or what? Take a look at the context - someone JOKINGLY suggested cat sailors were fat and lazy. I JOKINGLY - try reading that a couple of times - JOKINGLY - suggested we just prefer using our brains.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:19   #43
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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Not for a minute do I believe that a died in the wool Cat guy would change to a mono BUT some of these new mono's are going to keep the mono guy from moving over to a Cat. Women drive many of these decisions(dah!) so it will be interesting to see how the market moves over the next few years. Its kinda hard to believe they can make Cats any bigger than they do now without really degrading performance, the mono's might even grow some more although they are looking really bulky these days.
Agree 100%
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:20   #44
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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FFS, are you defensive or what? Take a look at the context - someone JOKINGLY suggested cat sailors were fat and lazy. I JOKINGLY - try reading that a couple of times - JOKINGLY - suggested we just prefer using our brains.
I think Polex was joking too but he was also challenging your ideas that multi's were king of yacht sales.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:24   #45
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Re: Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

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I think Polex was joking too but he was also challenging your ideas that multi's were king of yacht sales.

You must be reading different posts from the ones I'm writing. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money I've never suggested cats outsell monohulls.

Please show me where I said that.
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