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07-03-2014, 19:52
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#211
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac
After heading to the boat show and seeing for myself the same lack of quality issues surrounding the Beneteau Sense line... I refer back to page one of the postings where other participants on this thread noticed the same.... Except for one possible factory shill.
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I went to the Miami show last year and the local LA boat show a few weeks ago. The Sense 50 is impressive and unique. Quality of craftsmanship seemed on par with every other high end boat we examined. I don't see what the fuss is about.
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07-03-2014, 20:04
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#212
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,108
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
Its really unlikely that given the same amount of cabinets that the newer boats are any lighter in weight in that dept.
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Obviously you have never seen a composite veneered panel. They are a fraction of the weight of veneered plywood. By a large amount.
Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com
You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
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07-03-2014, 20:41
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#213
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 2,473
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There is a significant difference in build quality between "high end" and "baseline production" boats. This cannot be denied if you crawl around and into lockers and under floorboards, and in corners, etc, etc. not just sit in salon.
It has been said- and is true- if you are not looking to keep boat for life or cross oceans, probably doesn't matter. There also is a huge difference in price in the new boat market, and for 95 percent of buyers the difference in cost is not worth the difference in quality.
HOWEVER- I personally would not spend 300-350 K for a new production 45 foot boat when I could spend 150-250K on a used hinckley, morris, or bristol (or many others), spend 100 K on a complete professional refit, and have a superior end product.
IMHO the car argument doesn't work anymore because arguably lower end cars like toyota and honda are turning out more sturdy and reliable cars than Mercedes at a lower cost. We haven't gotten there with boats in terms of reliability and durability engineering at a price point.
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07-03-2014, 22:23
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#214
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Morgan Moorings 50
Posts: 1,895
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
In fact it's the exact opposite when you use the car analogy:
I would rather buy a brand new Honda or Toyota than spend thousands of dollars fixing up a 15-20 year old Mercedes
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07-03-2014, 22:37
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#215
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs
In fact it's the exact opposite when you use the car analogy:
I would rather buy a brand new Honda or Toyota than spend thousands of dollars fixing up a 15-20 year old Mercedes
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What if you were going far offroad, deep into country where there are no mechanics and only the parts and tools you bring with you? I do believe that around the world, it's generally accepted that in this case an older vehicle may be better. Because it's more robust and easier to work on.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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07-03-2014, 22:44
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#216
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Morgan Moorings 50
Posts: 1,895
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
If I had to do work myself, I'd rather work on a simple inline-4 than an old Mercedes engine, unless it was a diesel maybe. It's such a hard analogy. If I were going across country in the US, sure I would want my old Jeep 4.0L inline-6, because you can find parts just about anywhere in the country. In Europe, it might be different. I'll never be able to relate boats to cars. It kind of annoys me when people refer to Beneteaus as one brand and Hallberg Rassey as another brand. Really stupid analogy again.
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08-03-2014, 02:45
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#217
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,985
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Colmj: Yes I have seen the sandwiched panels some even done in honey comb and they are indeed light and strong and I consider them high quality although I have never seen them used in cheap production boats, can you give me some examples where they are used in Beneteaus??
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08-03-2014, 04:09
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#218
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs
If I had to do work myself, I'd rather work on a simple inline-4 than an old Mercedes engine, unless it was a diesel maybe. It's such a hard analogy. If I were going across country in the US, sure I would want my old Jeep 4.0L inline-6, because you can find parts just about anywhere in the country. In Europe, it might be different. I'll never be able to relate boats to cars. It kind of annoys me when people refer to Beneteaus as one brand and Hallberg Rassey as another brand. Really stupid analogy again.
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Beneteau and HR are very much brands. They have different clientele , price positioning and market segmentation. The vast majority of their clients are however weekend warriors.
What is much harder to ascertain is whether the price uplift is worth the perceived additional quality. Having seen both beneteau and Hr factories on fairly in depth tours, I remain dubious that the HR pricing is primarily a function of higher input coTs and market positioning. HR could never go head to head with beneteau and don't even try.
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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08-03-2014, 05:15
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#219
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CLOD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,415
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
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08-03-2014, 05:25
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#220
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1
you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle
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Well it does get to the bottom of an interesting aspect of epirb technology and why things like plbs etc are useless as mob devices for example
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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08-03-2014, 06:08
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#221
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,108
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
Colmj: Yes I have seen the sandwiched panels some even done in honey comb and they are indeed light and strong and I consider them high quality although I have never seen them used in cheap production boats, can you give me some examples where they are used in Beneteaus??
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I don't know anything about the Beneteaus - the discussion on engineered wood panels was a general one and I was responding to the statements that they were cheap and "Ikea-like" and that their use on newer boats did not save any weight from the traditional use of solid teak and teak plywood.
Both of which are incorrect.
Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com
You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
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08-03-2014, 06:39
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#222
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1
you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle
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You must have missed the New England boat show last week. I was very impressed by the new Hunter 40 over the Beneteau Sense 38... which is what reignited this thread debate.
Does preferring Hunter over Beneteau now make me a snob.
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08-03-2014, 07:29
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#223
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,985
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Well I think one discussion was on particle board and that morphed into engineered panels which I am pretty sure was not used on the Sense. Some of the more expensive Cats and mono hulls use high tech interior panels but I'm not aware of any of the lower cost production boats that use them, just to much money.
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08-03-2014, 07:56
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#224
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona/Rhode Island
Boat: Swan 432
Posts: 820
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
There is no particle board on a beneteau. It's veneered plywood , just like HR , oyster , etc. the difference being a robot cuts it as opposed to a highly paid and protected Swedish cabinet maker.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I owned a First 36.7 for 5 years, the "veneered plywood" cabinets almost immediately started losing their glued-on molding. The smooth flooring was dangerously slippery when wet. The cheap varnish on the toe rails started flaking after 6 months of San Francisco weather. The LPS on the boat was 119 degrees, with a B/D ratio of less than 30% the boat does not even qualify for some offshore races. Some of the components (winches, rigging, mast, steering) were high quality while the overall fit and finish was not confidence inspiring.
When we decided to move up to a bigger, blue water cruising boat, we looked at some new Beneteaus and Jeanneaus. The new boats are designed to look good at the boat shows, they figured out 15 years ago that women play a big part in the buying process. I heard that from a Beneteau dealer BTW. The deck stepped mast is standard because it keeps the interior dry and is cheaper. The stanchions do not inspire confidence, just look at their attachment points. Most of their boats do not have an LPS over 120, hell, they don't even list their (iron!) keel weights anymore. I tried awfully hard to find something to like about their First 40/45's. The 40 has a horrible layout below for cruising, why they insisted on a 3 cabin layout with a dinky head I will never understand. The 45 has two dinky heads, very limited storage, and those weird centerline hatches. The salon area would be dangerous in a seaway, lots of open space without handholds. Rant over, I feel better now.
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08-03-2014, 14:08
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#225
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by deluxe68
I owned a First 36.7 for 5 years, ... The LPS on the boat was 119 degrees, with a B/D ratio of less than 30% the boat does not even qualify for some offshore races. ...
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There are several ways to measure AVS, the one used by ISAF for racing gives lower numbers than the one used on European RCD, an ISO procedure. Regarding an ISO AVS a First 36.7 with standard keel has an AVS of 126º. For instance, and comparing what is comparable and equally in what regards ISO AVS, a Catalina 42 or 42MKII has an AVS of 105º.
What boat do you have? Do you know the ISO AVS?
The B/D of the boat can be misleading since the type of keel and draft have a big influence. A boat with a bigger draft an a torpedo keel needs much less ballast for the same RM, compared with a lower draft or a non bulbed keel. Even a bulbed keel needs more ballast if compared with a torpedo keel to have the same RM.
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