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Old 04-06-2013, 09:24   #91
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I know this is a bit off track, but this thread has turned into a "what you get for your money" thread. It is another reason to buy used. You get way more for your money, provided you to your research, look at a LOT of boats, and take into consideration how a given boat has been used and the attentiveness and knowledge of the previous owner. If you can find an older, lightly used and well maintained example of a certain model boat, particularly one that has just been updated, then you stand to get your money's worth. Yes, you forgo cosmetic perfection and some of the benefits of modern design in terms of conveniences and space, but you get much better value for your money.

I think it should be noted that one of the price point pressures working against production manufacturers these days is the glut of used boats in the US market. Boat makers are competing against their own used products as well as dealing with the increased cost of manufacturing.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:43   #92
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Firstly , as with premium cars, A lot of price differential is marketing based, HR can't sell a cheaper boat , nobody would buy it.

Secondly a huge amount of cost is absorbed in the essentially manual assembly process in HR ( yes there is some automation but not much) Swedish labout is not cheap. While finely finished teak interiors are lovely, they do not add much to the basic yacht itself.

If one looks at basic hardware ( plumbing, deck, hatches , pedestals.mast, engine, electronics etc) , one seems very similar name brand equipment, )

Of course Beneteau/Jeanbeau is built with far more automation, a lower quality ( though well acceptable) interior cabinetry , thats mostly laser cut and simply assembled.

But the basic boat is as strong as its needs, and not far from so called premium makes ( HR is now a fin keel and spade company etc too).

MY BMWx5 and toyota corolla will both do 150 K miles and will last to the end. One is three times the price of the other,

for example the Bavaria 37 is 7T, the Hr is 7.5T, not a great difference!.

Im not arguing the quality and build are identical , but the french boats are good boats, the swedish one is a very good boat, whether its worth twice the money , thats another thing.



Dave

Beats me where all these allegations of sameness come from. You mention Bavaria so lets go there. The mid sized Bavarias sold in USA ( not sure about Europe ) come with a 60 amp alternator and Garmin instrumentation. Similar sized Jeanneaus come with 60 amp alternator and Raymarine instrumentation.

Equivalent HRs come with 115 amp alternator and Furuno instrumentation.

Take a look at the bow of any of these boats. The Jeanneaus and Bavarias have one of those bolt on thingies that pokes out beside the forestay while the HRs all have a heavy custom designed anchor box which in the larger models can accommodate 2 anchors.

As for fin keels, they have been available as a HR option ever since Frers started drawing them and that was 25 years ago.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:55   #93
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

That's my opinion too. The HR's are mostly custom in design. Not that much generic bolt on. Hull to deck joints are better or at least not visible and things like shower pans, engine beds and the like seem heftier and better thought out. My HR is an older one and does not have any of the custom stuff but for it's day it was much superior to what was around at the time. I have had to relocate a few thru-hulls and was impressed by the lay-up and also discovered the hull to deck joint is glassed...not bolted. I don't have to tell you what that means after 30+ years.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:02   #94
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Regarding the Op question about the new Sense , i think is to early to say if this particular model have quality isues , time will tell us if the boat is good ot not, here in the boatyard we fix dozens of french boats every year , so we see why things break or fail under normal circunstances , and about the comparison between the Hr and the Jeaneau ,, come on, is unfair for the Jeaneau, like i say in previous topics the diference is hundreds of small details in construction, from the wiring to the teack deck, from the backing plates for cleats to deck to hull joint , no mention the hard dodger or semi dodger in the hr..... hull to deck joint is glassed in many Hr , stringers are glassed directly to hull instead of Plexus glued liner like the Jeaneau , here is the diference!!


This pics show the wiring panel in a Hr and the other 2 bene and jeaneau electrical stuff.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:14   #95
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Beneteau have done a remarkable job of designing boats that people like to sail and hang around on. OMG they're not HR or Swan or Oyster (umm, can't afford it).

For some reason (umm, money) most people drive Fords or Toyotas or VW's rather than Rolls or Ferrari. And whilst no one in their right mind compares a VW to a Mercedes, at the same time no one really questions whether the VW is fit for purpose. It is.

Likewise the production boats. They may look more used if you sail them around the world a couple of times, but they can still do it.

I know my Hatteras is a much better boat than my FP in terms of build. But the FP is the one I use the most and enjoy the most.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:51   #96
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Fit for purposes? okey, A 10 $ casio do the same work as a Breitling or rolex , tic tac... but at the end of the road, which one can last for many years in good condition....
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:56   #97
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
This pics show the wiring panel in a Hr and the other 2 bene and jeaneau electrical stuff.
Those phtos are a bit disingenuous.
Not only are they not comparing the same or similar things the ages are totally different.

Get 3 wiring panels of 3 new boats and show us your poiint.

Or 3 engine wirings, or 3 anything - but the same and same vintage - new.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:57   #98
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Is not the age , is the way to make the wiring ....
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:02   #99
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Well I hate to tell you that the new wiring panel below uses the same grey plastic (made in Asia) electrical panels as Beneteau... and my boats 11 years old!
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Old 04-06-2013, 16:12   #100
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Fit for purposes? okey, A 10 $ casio do the same work as a Breitling or rolex , tic tac... but at the end of the road, which one can last for many years in good condition....
What is value?
Let's say a nice Rolex costs about $8K (that's what my brother paid for one with a bunch of diamonds on it). I wouldn't own it, but my guess is that it will last a very long time. Maybe a few hundred years.
Let's say that a cheapie Casio (a $10 no frills digital) will last maybe ten years with a new battery or two.
So for $8K you can buy 800 of those cheap little suckers... times ten years is eight thousand years of knowing what time it is.
Granted, the Casio probably won't get you laid (or robbed), but you must admit it is not a bad value if all you want is to know what time it is.
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Old 04-06-2013, 16:53   #101
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CE was brought into the UK August 1st, 2005.... how many UK sailboat producers/manufacturers were left by then...
The Crabber Series.. maybe 3 others...
Westerly, Sadler, Colvic, Hurley to name but a few had died the death...

CE Certification is around since 1995. And its was driven by the big boys in British boatbuilding Princess and Fairline, Brits don't build sailing boats anymore.

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Old 04-06-2013, 16:56   #102
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The type of electronics is no example of quality HRs I have seen have been supplied with everything. I seen Hanses with Simrad

A big " so what "

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Old 04-06-2013, 16:59   #103
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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Regarding the Op question about the new Sense , i think is to early to say if this particular model have quality isues , time will tell us if the boat is good ot not, here in the boatyard we fix dozens of french boats every year , so we see why things break or fail under normal circunstances , and about the comparison between the Hr and the Jeaneau ,, come on, is unfair for the Jeaneau, like i say in previous topics the diference is hundreds of small details in construction, from the wiring to the teack deck, from the backing plates for cleats to deck to hull joint , no mention the hard dodger or semi dodger in the hr..... hull to deck joint is glassed in many Hr , stringers are glassed directly to hull instead of Plexus glued liner like the Jeaneau , here is the diference!!

This pics show the wiring panel in a Hr and the other 2 bene and jeaneau electrical stuff.
By the way , those DIN rail connectors are not suitable for salt water , quite a few parts are coated steel, they get nasty after a while.


And that teak deck is screwed down , creating thousands of potential water leak points. I spent a very interesting 1/2 hour discussing the method with the HR craftsman.


Dave
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:00   #104
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I thought that CE in Europe was like the Underwriters Laboratories in the U.S..
Not just for boats but for pretty much all manufactured products.
The spirit of it is to hold manufacturers to a standard of quality that keeps consumers from being injured of killed by faulty and dangerous products.
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:08   #105
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I 'm not sure we should use fancy watches as an example. I owned one and found out they need almost yearly maintenence to stay in top condition. Not sure how that relates to boats but I see expensive boats getting worked on by pro's more than I see Casio's.
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