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Old 02-06-2013, 08:39   #61
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post

Having quickly looked at the CE ratings for new Bene's, Hanses, Jeanneau's, etc. They are all A - Ocean.

Am I to understand that this means nothing
Correct, it means nothing. Go to the boat show... the difference in quality and workmanship between the HRs, Oysters, Hylas just to name a few and the less expensive production boats should be obvious to anyone with an open mind, average intelligence and 20/20 vision.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:06   #62
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Correct, it means nothing. Go to the boat show... the difference in quality and workmanship between the HRs, Oysters, Hylas just to name a few and the less expensive production boats should be obvious to anyone with an open mind, average intelligence and 20/20 vision.
That's right.
Just like going to a car show.
The difference in quality of a Bentley, a Rolls, and a Lamborghini will be apparently different than that of a Volvo, an Audi, or a BMW.
Although the most glaring difference is in the perception of the snobs who own them.
Reminds me of that old joke...
"What's the difference between a Rolls Royce and a porcupine? With a porcupine the pricks are on the outside."
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:10   #63
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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That's right.
Just like going to a car show.
The difference in quality of a Bentley, a Rolls, and a Lamborghini will be apparently different than that of a Volvo, an Audi, or a BMW.
Although the most glaring difference is in the perception of the snobs who own them.
Reminds me of that old joke...
"What's the difference between a Rolls Royce and a porcupine? With a porcupine the pricks are on the outside."
It is after all, and always has been, all about elitism, posturing and class distinction.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:57   #64
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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It is after all, and always has been, all about elitism, posturing and class distinction.
Which of the following are you lacking? An open mind, average intelligence or 20/20 vision?

Do you really think a 33ft Beneteau is somehow equal to a 33 meter Perini Navi?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:00   #65
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Which of the following are you lacking? An open mind, average intelligence or 20/20 vision?

Do you really think a 33ft Beneteau is somehow equal to a 33 meter Perini Navi?
Exactly my point.
You have not disappointed my assessment.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:10   #66
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Which of the following are you lacking? An open mind, average intelligence or 20/20 vision?

Do you really think a 33ft Beneteau is somehow equal to a 33 meter Perini Navi?
I am sorry. I didn't mean to be flippant.
You are probably a very nice person.
In fact, you are probably better than 99% of the people who visit this forum.
You must be. You have an Oyster 53.
I am confused, is that somehow equal to a 33 meter Perini Navi?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:20   #67
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Correct, it means nothing. Go to the boat show... the difference in quality and workmanship between the HRs, Oysters, Hylas just to name a few and the less expensive production boats should be obvious to anyone with an open mind, average intelligence and 20/20 vision.
....and there lies the problem...
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:23   #68
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Frankly, I'm appalled that a thread on Beneteau (and others) build quality has not descended into the proper vitriolic and profane slug fest it normally does. Perhaps you gentlemen are getting too old for such a vigorous challenge.
[...]
Now if this doesn't start a good ole slug fest, I quit. I did my best.
Mission accomplished!

Now how about we talk about boats, OK?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:34   #69
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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I am sorry. I didn't mean to be flippant.
You are probably a very nice person.
Apology accepted.

Let me explain myself. There are obvious build quality differences between the various yacht manufacturers which generally go hand in hand with price points.

Example: I was in the piano business for many years. A $50,000 Steinway grand piano looks exactly like a $5,000 Chinese piano with a US makers sticker plastered on the front. For most piano buyers, the $5,000 Chinese furniture quality piano will do the job for an 8 year old taking piano lessons. However, there is a HUGE difference in quality between the two instruments as any accomplished pianist will confirm. It doesn't matter if the Steinway is just sitting in some rich guys living room not being played and only on display for snob appeal... the quality is still there.

The same analogy applies to yacht manufacturers. Not all yachts are created equal and in most cases, the price point is a good indication of quality. How was that?
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:22   #70
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I drive a Porsche. Own a Hatteras. And a production FP Lavezzi.

Without a doubt, more money tends to buy more quality. But, I don't think that it is implicit that the cheaper brands are somehow unfit for purpose. They are perfectly capable of what they're designed to do. What I've found, from actual experience, is that the ancillaries on the cheaper yacht aren't as robust as the more expensive yacht.

Quelle surprise!

What I've also noted with a lot of older production boats is that the owners have replaced failed "bits & pieces" with the stuff which is used on the better yachts. Are Beneteaus etc fit for purpose - of course they are. Maybe they won't age as well as a Hallberg Rassy but quite frankly if the owner had the HR budget they probably would've bought an HR? Or maybe it's only rich dudes who get to live the life....

More to the point, a lot of the budget on high end boats is also spent on high end finishes & millwork. Comfy stuff. Not grizzled mariner stuff.

Maybe Beneteau's are the Volkswagen Combi Van of the seas. That's a mantle I'd wear proudly - they do exactly what they're designed to do in an elegant fashion.

PS - Forget the car, forget the motor cruiser, the most fun is attained whilst sailing my 'crappy production boat'....
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:26   #71
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Apology accepted.

Let me explain myself. There are obvious build quality differences between the various yacht manufacturers which generally go hand in hand with price points.

Example: I was in the piano business for many years. A $50,000 Steinway grand piano looks exactly like a $5,000 Chinese piano with a US makers sticker plastered on the front. For most piano buyers, the $5,000 Chinese furniture quality piano will do the job for an 8 year old taking piano lessons. However, there is a HUGE difference in quality between the two instruments as any accomplished pianist will confirm. It doesn't matter if the Steinway is just sitting in some rich guys living room not being played and only on display for snob appeal... the quality is still there.

The same analogy applies to yacht manufacturers. Not all yachts are created equal and in most cases, the price point is a good indication of quality. How was that?
That's fine Ken. Thank you for the message. Good analogy.
Interesting, I am also in the music business. I am a pro bass player. Been performing, touring, and recording for 40+ years.
I know players who can make a $5K Yamaha grand sound better than a dilettante player with a $50K Steinway.
As you probably know, there are few businesses with more snobs than the music business but on the other hand, in the music business it really comes down to how well you can play more than how much you paid for your axe.
We are having a really great spring here in California. I am hauling the boat next week and then leaving Santa Cruz for a month or so at the Channel Islands.
I wouldn't mind trading places with you for a week or two. Never been to Spain but I am sure it is a wonderful place to be.
Hope you have a fabulous summer as well.
Fair winds my friend,
Liam Wald.
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Old 02-06-2013, 13:18   #72
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I saw a bigger Sense here and she was fine. I think built in France as otherwise how could she end up in Las Palmas?

All boatyards have issues, pick the kit you like and that's that.

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Old 02-06-2013, 20:10   #73
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I've bought and sold a number of insurance/ repo boats over the years to pay for my own boat habit, kids tuitions, houses, etc, I don't watch much TV. Because of this I've really had to tear into a lot of boats while inspecting them to make sure I wasn't bidding on a total wreck, inspecting the tabbing, grids, hull layups and just about everything that makes a boat a boat, you don't want to find out the structural grid in your recently purchased auction boat has irreperable damage, even disposing of a boat is expensive these days. The difference in build quality is noticeable, Beni's have declined in quality markedly over the last decade, much more flash, much less quality, not bad for the first few years but a real problem if you plan on owning one for 10 years or so. It seems they are looking for showroom flash and skipping the basics, cost cutting can only go so far before it compromises the bones of your new yacht.
Long story short? There are other builders in that price point producing much better built yachts, not as flashy, maybe no hot tub, but much better boats to live with over the long haul. It all depends on what your looking for. It's not the price point, it's the profit margin.
I fully understand the boat business during the recent economic disaster but some builders have taken reduced margins to keep building the same level of quality in hopes of maintaining customer loyalty, we'll see how that works out in the long run.
I've dropped keels, cut out and replaced hull sections, done just about everything that can be done to a boat including rebuilding diesels, so I truly understand hull structure, so my eye may be a bit more critical.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:26   #74
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

"Long story short? There are other builders in that price point producing much better built yachts, not as flashy, maybe no hot tub, but much better boats to live with over the long haul"

Just wondering if you have a spare sec if you wouldn't mind rating your findings? Would be very interested to hear this.

Regards,
Simon
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:35   #75
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Me too...
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