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Old 02-06-2013, 05:09   #46
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

LOL... Feeling better now...
I would also add 1500 trouble free miles, we didnt sink, not even once! I dived the keel and the rudder in Gib and had exactly the same number of both as when I left Plymouth!
Now I would be the 1st to say that 200 miles into weather was not the most comfortable ride. I would, for that leg have rather been in a Rassy...
BUT... I could not afford a Rassy. So im here, doing what I love and enabled by a boat of good, useable quality at a price a normal working class man can aspire to afford.
I did not need to spend 3 years, a marriage or 2 and god only knows how much cash refitting a 30 year old boat.
Anyhow, tomorrow we attempt suicide again as we continue our voyage of terror along Spains south coast. For now I am off for a jug of sangria, some tapas and to watch the moto GP. If you are in the bilge of a 30 year old "classic" and likely to be there for another 2 years more... You must be a "real" sailor. Well done!
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:27   #47
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
Interesting thread. As someone very new to this whole sailing thing, and a potential buyer of a cheap production boat that some people "wouldn't be seen dead on" I'm interested in what you people do to your boats that would cause so much damage?

I'm sure if a "cheap" production boat and an old man's blue water tank of a boat were in some crazy storm the tank would stand up better. But isn't the idea to try and avoid those?

I think sometimes bashing the production boats is a way for some owners who've spent 5x as much to justify the purchase so they can sleep at night.
Apparently you don't get it... and probably never will.

We'd be currently sailing around on a 2006 Jeanneau 54DS if it hadn't been for the quality concerns (following the survey) of the boat holding up over time and not turning into crap. We liked the boat, but couldn't ignore real issues.

But hey... ignore the CF advice and go for it dude.

One more thing before I tune out on this thread which I should never have entered: We drive around in a Scion as a daily driver and on occasion in our fun car which happens to be a Ferrari. I assure you, the driving experience is quite different between the two cars... just as I'm sure the experience is quite different between cruising around in our Oyster vs a Perini Navi.

My original point in entering into this thread was to possibly build a fire under the quality control guys over at Jeanneau and Beneteau, not to argue or bash other brands.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:30   #48
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
Interesting thread. As someone very new to this whole sailing thing, and a potential buyer of a cheap production boat that some people "wouldn't be seen dead on" I'm interested in what you people do to your boats that would cause so much damage?
The issue is simply quality. In this life you tend to get what you pay for.

Here's one tiny example: go look at the stemhead and the anchor rollers on a stock Hunter or Jeanneau; then go look at the same gear on a Hallberg Rassy. The flimsy gear on the Hunter/Jeanneau will work fine under normal conditions. But under stress it is much more likely to bend or break. I've seen entire stemheads pull out.

You can make similar comparisons with respect to the thickness of the firberglass and barrier coat, the keel bolts, chainplates, and rudder post, etc. etc.

A Kia will get you from point A to point B, and so will a Lexus. So, why would anyone pay more for a Lexus?

BTW if you are going to buy a relatively inexpensive boat I'd look at late model Catalinas. They're the best of a bad lot in my opinion.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:54   #49
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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The issue is simply quality. In this life you tend to get what you pay for.

Maybe its how you use it?

Most people never go anywhere on their boats. By 'anywhere' I mean they may do 100 miles from their home port but no more.

As its fairly obvious to anyone looking at the bottom of my post my boat has been far further than most.

And for those that think Bene's twist, wriggle or sommit at sea I did 13 days upwind in January... by myself. Boat didnt wriggle, twist or wahtever is meant to happen to them. It could have been nicer if it was a downwind run... but thats the same on all boats.

One has a choice between going somewhere 'now' or not going before they are too old to enjoy it. My thought was to go 'now', I did, and am doing.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:15   #50
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Cars, like boats, need to meet safety ratings. In your example above if I were to crash in a Kia or a Lexus I'd expect a level of safey. CE ratings are there to insure this.

Having quickly looked at the CE ratings for new Bene's, Hanses, Jeanneau's, etc. They are all A - Ocean.

Am I to understand that this means nothing?

I just had a look at some Hallberg-Rassy's as well. I guess it also comes down to personal taste. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead on something that old and dated looking.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The issue is simply quality. In this life you tend to get what you pay for.

Here's one tiny example: go look at the stemhead and the anchor rollers on a stock Hunter or Jeanneau; then go look at the same gear on a Hallberg Rassy. The flimsy gear on the Hunter/Jeanneau will work fine under normal conditions. But under stress it is much more likely to bend or break. I've seen entire stemheads pull out.

You can make similar comparisons with respect to the thickness of the firberglass and barrier coat, the keel bolts, chainplates, and rudder post, etc. etc.

A Kia will get you from point A to point B, and so will a Lexus. So, why would anyone pay more for a Lexus?

BTW if you are going to buy a relatively inexpensive boat I'd look at late model Catalinas. They're the best of a bad lot in my opinion.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:31   #51
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pirate Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
Cars, like boats, need to meet safety ratings. In your example above if I were to crash in a Kia or a Lexus I'd expect a level of safey. CE ratings are there to insure this.

Having quickly looked at the CE ratings for new Bene's, Hanses, Jeanneau's, etc. They are all A - Ocean.

Am I to understand that this means nothing?

I just had a look at some Hallberg-Rassy's as well. I guess it also comes down to personal taste. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead on something that old and dated looking.
CE ratings make a boat safer....
Buy an 80's Hunter sail it to the UK and apply for the CE inspection...
It would have cost me 12,000 back in '05 for 18 safety stickers
Its a Political/Commercial move to stem the flood of cheap 2nd hand boats that were coming into the EU and stuffing the EU manufacturers profits... much like Japanese bikes back in the '70's... then they just changed the licencing laws.. and made my 250cc that I'd owned for 3yrs illegal to ride on just a car licence.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:42   #52
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Lets just face it , good boats are expensive . The economics has changed so much. I was just down In Annapolis and walked on a couple of Bristols . It was the first time I have been aboard one , I was shocked by the build quality of the vessels. The man hours that must have gone in to them . I think it would be tough to build a Bristol 51.1 in today's economy with less then a 1.5 million price tag.

Regards
Now you know why Bristol, Hinckley and Able yachts aren't around anymore. Beats me how Morris manage to stay in business. They have trimmed their range so maybe that was it. As an example, Morris had the 51 on sale for how long ? 5 years ? and only sold 3.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:44   #53
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

I also own a Beneteau. A 2003 Oceanis 331. In the ten years that I have owned the boat I have logged about 18K miles. I have sailed in most conditions and never ever once felt like the boat was going to break or was in any way unsafe.
I did not buy this boat because it was all I could afford. I really liked the boat when I bought her and still do today. This is my fifth boat in nearly forty years of sailing.
Would I buy this boat again? Yes, definitely. It has performed as expected and held value.
Like Mark points out, it is all about what your intended use is. I sail the California Coast between the San Francisco Bay and San Diego, mostly singlehanded. I may some day go to Mexico but have no plans to circumnavigate or even to venture outside of the 40degree lattitute band.
The boat requires very little maintenance and performs reasonably well. Kind of like my Volvo. I don't need a Mercedes.
PS: My Volvo is a 2004. Although technically more advanced than older Volvo's that I have owned, I don't feel like it is built as well as the earlier models with regard to fit, finish, and craftsmanship
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:50   #54
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
Cars, like boats, need to meet safety ratings. In your example above if I were to crash in a Kia or a Lexus I'd expect a level of safey. CE ratings are there to insure this.

Having quickly looked at the CE ratings for new Bene's, Hanses, Jeanneau's, etc. They are all A - Ocean.

Am I to understand that this means nothing?

I just had a look at some Hallberg-Rassy's as well. I guess it also comes down to personal taste. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead on something that old and dated looking.
Nothing wrong with HR's. For long term, long range luxury cruising they can't be beat. Oysters cost more but are no better. That old and dated HR will be sailing long after a Beneteau has started doing banana impersonations.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:51   #55
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpickard View Post
Cars, like boats, need to meet safety ratings. In your example above if I were to crash in a Kia or a Lexus I'd expect a level of safey. CE ratings are there to insure this.

Having quickly looked at the CE ratings for new Bene's, Hanses, Jeanneau's, etc. They are all A - Ocean.

Am I to understand that this means nothing?
IMHO it means virtually nothing. The manufacturers themselves do the ratings, and they're about conformity, not quality. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:54   #56
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Nothing wrong with HR's. For long term, long range luxury cruising they can't be beat. Oysters cost more but are no better. That old and dated HR will be sailing long after a Beneteau has started doing banana impersonations.
And you believe this because....
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:03   #57
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Curmudgeon.

A compelling argument, and at first reading I bought it entirely.

However, on sober reflection, it struck me there might be a downside.

The mass market for brass seacocks, 'marine' diesels which will not run without electricity, gimballed geegaws and I-frou-frous and all that tedious rubbish....

could easily siphon off the profitability of serious offfshore-suitable gear, much as Harbour Freight and Jet and Rong Fu disposable machine tools have killed off the new supply of decent (no frills, but fit-for-purpose) lathes and mills for the home workshop.

Simulations are invariably more profitable than authentic renditions.

Waddayamean ?

Chicks dig frou frous ! You know they're a wake up to that thing about the etchings, right ?
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:06   #58
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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Waddayamean ?

Chicks dig frou frous ! You know they're a wake up to that thing about the etchings, right ?
That makes almost as much sense as your last quote.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:11   #59
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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As I was told (by a Frenchman) "Pig farmers are not boat-builders".....
...and goat farmers are???
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:26   #60
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Re: Beneteau sense quality issues

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And you believe this because....
Two years ago when I was boat shopping I went all over a couple of HR 46s. Both were absolutely superb and one made it to #2 on my short list. I wanted to do likewise with the Oyster 46 but soon found them to be out of my price range. Maybe I should have checked the 485 ? ? ? All history now.
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