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Old 09-03-2014, 11:41   #241
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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,,,There are lots of pictures of the beamy French race boats from years ago that turned turtle and stayed there, not for a few seconds or a few minutes but just stayed there. Racers were rescued and some great stories were told while they lived upside down for many hours. After that they had to be tested upside down to ensure that they would right themselves and along came the canting hydraulic keel because without it they would not self right.
...
Beam is wonderful for initial stability but when lightly ballasted once it goes past a certain point it has little resistance to rolling. Some folks suggest they wouldn't sail their boat in a race like that but I'm sure none of the participants would have either had they known what was coming. 99% of the time any sailboat will make it across the oceans and they obviously do but some boats are pushing the design limits in my opinion when it comes to being truly designed for unlimited offshore use.
I really don't know if you don't know or if you pretend that you don't know but the only contemporary solo French Open60's (Sense is a contemporary design) that stayed upside down were those that lost their keels or bulbs in accidents, mostly high speed collisions. They used complicated and much stressed canting keels that have been showing some lack of reliability (the rule has changed last year making mandatory more reliable keels). That is not the case with the Beneteau Sense or any Beneteau for that matter, I mean losing the keels or have showed lack of reliability.

Regarding what you seem not to know is that those beamy Open designs have the ability to re-right themselves even without the help of any wave that is a thing that almost all older cruising or racing designs are not able to do. I know, pushing the design limits, in what regards safety too

http://youtu.be/mFrnkV5ACa8

as you can see, beam has not prevented that beamy boat to re-right itself. As I had said already it is a matter of having a low CG basically. They also have to change interior ballast but even without that they still have a good AVS, bigger than most of older designed boats and without changing a thing would be re-righted by a wave several times smaller than the one that had turned them turtle...if that had happened (like it would happen with a Sense in the unlikely case of being capsized).

In fact on the last years (since the boats were improved) I cannot recall of any Open 60 that had been capsized (not counting those that lost the keels) and they circumnavigated many tens of times, solo sailed, many times in autopilot, while racing by the worst seas on the planet. But I can remember several that after losing their keels were able to continue racing for thousands of miles till the finish line. That gives you an idea of the positive stability of those boats (even with the added stability brought by the keel and ballast) and that video gives you an idea of how smaller is the inverted stability if compared with the positive stability.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:53   #242
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Remember I didn't see the movie so I made an assumption but hey I'm not above doing what you suggested, LOL. By the way I would rather be in a Sense too for everyday sailing but while I don't know for sure I think the Contessa 32 would take more than that Benni could in a real sh*t storm and its got the pedigree to prove it because it has been there and done that, something the Benni hasn't.

Yes waterline is important and larger boats will have more resistance to capsize than smaller ones, those are all good points and I agree with you. It wasn't that long ago that the weather forecasting in some areas was on the iffy side and cruisers didn't have GPS and Sat phones and EPIRB's that would ensure that they could be saved if need be so these folks needed a damn tough boat to be able to take anything thrown at them because no one would come looking for them if they had problems. Times have changed, we watch Boatmen cross the Atlantic with a Spot and we sometimes sail boats that are compromised for a bad day but hey odds these days are with us.

If you can find the DVD for the Queens birthday storm (1994 I think) watch it, it will give you some insight to what otherwise should have been a cake walk sail from NZ to Fiji. Imagine a well built 45 footer being pitch polled (end over end) and rolled 360 degrees, literally wrapping the mast around the complete boat. That will give you some incite into just how large seas can get in this area and it was not forecast when a dozens of boats left NZ for the tropics. Sailing to and from NZ is not trade wind sailing but while it can get rough, these were abnormal conditions. Go aboard a new Benni Sense, walk around and imagine being on board in those conditions, not for this kid.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:04   #243
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Lots of folks must really take some of this stuff personally. I understand justifying your individual choice and I also know that like religion very few people actually change their minds even when presented good information that runs contrary to their beliefs. Most Cats and beamy lightly ballasted boats are fine for typical trade wind sailing, hell you can sail a 1970's 20 foot racer cruiser across an ocean when all is well so no argument there. ....
The beamy boats lightly ballasted, as you call them, are practically almost all contemporary cruisers. They are only lightly ballasted because as they are light they need less ballast, as they have more draft they need less ballast, as they have torpedo keels or efficient bulbed keels they need less ballast... to have a CG as low or lower than older boats, much heavier with less efficient keels and much more ballast.

Off course, modern cruisers are faster, even upwind, than older designed boats.

And by the way, my boat is not particularly beamy and has not the hull based on Open boats, neither that is my personal choice for a cruising boat. That do not mean that I don't understand how those boats work and their advantages in what regards the average cruiser, even bluewater cruiser or do you think that practically all best Na (that design those boats) don't know what they are doing (and you know)? Or that the ones that are buying those boats even for voyaging, don't know what they are doing?

Regarding those 20/30ft old designed boats being safe to cross Oceans maybe you know what happened on the two last "races" that were made for them, Challenge...something. Some modern sized small boats performed much better.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:06   #244
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Ya your right, those boats never rolled or stayed upside down!

Two years later, Autissier entered the Around Alone for the third time. She was leading the race in its third leg whenhalfway between New Zealand and Cape Horna huge wave hit PRB and caused its autopilot to malfunction. The boat capsized. She had only enough time to slam the waterproof hatch behind her to prevent the cabin from flooding. Autissier activated her emergency beacons, but she was far from shipping lanes and out of
the range of the rescue services. Race officials directed one of her competitors, Giovanni Soldini of Italy, to go to her aid. Soldini piloted his boat through fierce conditions for more than twenty hours to reach Autissier's coordinates. "The problem is that these positions aren't precise, and it won't be easy to see Isabelle's boat," Soldini emailed to his Milan-based racing team. "Visibility is always poor, and in any case I'll need some luck."
Two and a half hours later, Soldini saw the upturned hull of Autissier's boat being pummeled by enormous waves. Twice he steered close to PRB and called for her, but there was no sign of Autissier. On his third pass, Soldini threw a hammer at the hull. It struck forcefully. An escape hatch opened, and Autissier crawled out. She had been sleeping.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:23   #245
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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She was leading the race in its third leg whenhalfway between New Zealand and Cape Horna huge wave hit PRB and caused its autopilot to malfunction.
If you are talking about boat designs for cruising around Cape Horn, and other similar passages, then I agree more closely with you on boat design choices and would not be taking our catamaran to those places. I would also be uncomfortable with the Sense there.

I thought you were talking about more common cruising grounds and routes, not about high latitude adventure sailing.

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Old 09-03-2014, 12:40   #246
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

It's always interesting that people don't think that modern boat designers know anything because otherwise they would still be designing boats like the "good" ones from the 70s. On the other hand there are still designers from the 70s around, so I guess that makes them insane because they have changed to "modern" designs.

Throw the old school books away and join the 90s at least.
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Old 09-03-2014, 13:00   #247
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Look guys I love some Cats and I like modern boats and yes the modern boats are faster and roomy so I see the attraction but some of them are a bit iffy in more extreme weather. Aside from their sailing attributes many of the modern boats would be flat out dangerous or at the least really uncomfortable for offshore passages because of the lack of hand holds, sharp interior corners, floors that are made in heavy 2x3 panels laid like tile unsecured and lack of proper sea berths just to name a few. I was aboard a friends 53 foot Hanse and it was huge inside. I tried to imagine myself getting around on that boat offshore in a blow, just too much open space to fly around. You could sit a dozen people in the cock pit and entertain that many below. For the Med I could not imagine a much better mono hull but its pretty obvious that this boat was not designed with offshore cruising in mind.
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Old 09-03-2014, 13:23   #248
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

I could say the same exact things about some older designs. In fact I could say anything but that wouldn't make it true.

Just to "prove" a unless point about talking about boats. In the end all you can talk about is THAT boat model. Everything else is armchair expert BS.
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Old 09-03-2014, 13:29   #249
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Whats your point Sailorboy1...I suspect while we cross oceans you'll still be sitting in your armchair.
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Old 09-03-2014, 14:27   #250
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

The only real drawback I see to the Sense series for open ocean passages is the lack of an aft cabin. I don't know how flat they sail, but I assume they still heave up and down which would make the owner's cabin in the front mighty uncomfortable. Some of the Sense series do have an option of a small crew cabin instead of storage space under the cockpit though, but sleeping there would not exactly be luxury sailing.
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Old 09-03-2014, 14:35   #251
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Ya your right, those boats never rolled or stayed upside down!

Two years later, Autissier entered the Around Alone for the third time. She was leading the race in its third leg whenhalfway between New Zealand and Cape Horna huge wave hit PRB and caused its autopilot to malfunction. The boat capsized. She had only enough time to slam the waterproof hatch behind her to prevent the cabin from flooding. Autissier activated her emergency beacons, but she was far from shipping lanes and out of
the range of the rescue services. Race officials directed one of her competitors, Giovanni Soldini of Italy, to go to her aid. Soldini piloted his boat through fierce conditions for more than twenty hours to reach Autissier's coordinates. "The problem is that these positions aren't precise, and it won't be easy to see Isabelle's boat," Soldini emailed to his Milan-based racing team. "Visibility is always poor, and in any case I'll need some luck."
Two and a half hours later, Soldini saw the upturned hull of Autissier's boat being pummeled by enormous waves. Twice he steered close to PRB and called for her, but there was no sign of Autissier. On his third pass, Soldini threw a hammer at the hull. It struck forcefully. An escape hatch opened, and Autissier crawled out. She had been sleeping.
You seem to have a problem with information: you reefer to an accident happened 15 years ago on a boat designed 19 years ago.

I said:

"In fact on the last years (since the boats were improved) I cannot recall of any Open 60 that had been capsized (not counting those that lost the keels) "

They were improved because they had problems with the final stability and with re-righting. The improvement I referred took place in 2002 and was bettered on the next years. Since then all Open 60's had to be able to do this before being allowed to race:



Obviously I was not referring almost 20 year designed boats or boats before that improvement.

Here you have PRB (the 5th) passing that test in 2010.

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Old 09-03-2014, 14:41   #252
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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The only real drawback I see to the Sense series for open ocean passages is the lack of an aft cabin. I don't know how flat they sail, but I assume they still heave up and down which would make the owner's cabin in the front mighty uncomfortable. Some of the Sense series do have an option of a small crew cabin instead of storage space under the cockpit though, but sleeping there would not exactly be luxury sailing.
They really sail flat. 10 to 15º I would say.
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Old 09-03-2014, 14:47   #253
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Whats your point Sailorboy1...I suspect while we cross oceans you'll still be sitting in your armchair.
My point is that you can use the word "some" to talk about anything. Yet you seem to want to use it for being able to make general absolutes.

I've never sailed a Beneteau Sense, have you? But it seems you know more about a lot boat designs than the people who designed them.


BTW - you now have gone for the personal attack to support your position.
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Old 09-03-2014, 14:58   #254
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Polux,
Yes the race boats have improved and no the Sense is not a race boat nor does it carry the draft or the ballast that the open ocean racers do. You felt that the beam was the key to stability in these boats, hell you could sail without a keel and my point was only the initial stability and that's obvious in the example I used as it turned turtle and stayed upside down. None of the early racers ever had to meet the tests they are put through now because they had moderate beam and a high ballast ratios and would always self right but these newer flat bottomed beamy boats got into situations where they would not self right and it raised a big red flag for safety hence the tests in your videos. The very fact that each boat has to pass this test should indicate that these designs are on the edge of a safety margin. No question the boats are wickedly fast on a reach, speeds that we could hardly believe possible years ago but they need a damn good autopilot and a very capable skipper.
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Old 09-03-2014, 15:07   #255
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

No Sailorboy1 I use the word some or maybe or many because my opinions do not cover all boats and all situations. If you feel I was attacking you I apologies as I was just returning a shot over the bow. I have never sailed on a Benni Sense. I have had a good cooks tour and enjoyed the boat for what it was designed for but its not my idea of an offshore boat. Remember its just an opinion and I have many thousands of miles to base it on but opinions are not facts and everyone has a right to have his own opinion. When people disagree with me I enjoy it because I have learned very little over the years from those that agree with me.
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