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Old 08-02-2014, 06:53   #151
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
One of the things that has always been in the back of my mind is this.

If quality is important and the product is "not" built down to a price then why would a builder use brass skin fittings and sea cocks???

My wife and I were home builders for many years and no industry is more monitored by all levels of government than ours however just because something "met the code" didn't mean that it was well built. We had our own standards that meant that for many parts of construction we simply built well beyond code because our experience taught us that there are areas that should not be built cheaply.
Some of the lower cost homes just met the code and they attracted what we referred to as "poundage buyers", Their expectations were much lower and they got what they paid for.

Back to my question: What does it say about a builder when he knows he is putting substandard material into something he is building?

In our industry we have a saying..If this is how you build where I can see it then what do you do where I can't.
Well said!
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:06   #152
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pirate Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Yikes, hard to believe because it doesn't make any sense for someone like HR to allow crap into one of their boats.
Why is it HR is considered any different to other production builders... apart from more expensive than an equivalent length Bavaria or Beneteau...
Pay either the difference and I'm sure they'd happily upgrade to HR standard.. its called 'Extras' I believe..
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Old 05-03-2014, 00:55   #153
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Hmm brass seacocks,HR uses them too.
Recently I came across this site;
Regina Sailing – Cruising in Safety, Comfort and Style

They use a completly rebuilt HR46,the seacock issue is described in detail here,sroll a bit down;

Regina Laska -

This particilar HR46 was built in 1997...I like that sauna though.


Regards and have a nice weekend!
From the same site,another seacockstory;
Regina Sailing – Cruising in Safety, Comfort and Style | Artur sees Blue Daisy for the first time

interesting stuff.

regards,
JJ
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Old 05-03-2014, 06:31   #154
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

The seacocks were less scary than the new owner of that boat. Jeez, is he going to be surprised to find what it is really like to be on a boat.

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Old 05-03-2014, 20:26   #155
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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The seacocks were less scary than the new owner of that boat. Jeez, is he going to be surprised to find what it is really like to be on a boat.

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Old 05-03-2014, 20:32   #156
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

We attended the New England boat show last week. We were quite shocked by how cheap everything seemed to be on the Beneteaus. In our view, The Hunter 40 was much nicer, with a higher quality interior, which seemed to make more Sense. The open concept on the Beneteau 38 is just plain strange.
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Old 05-03-2014, 21:40   #157
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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Well said!
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
One of the things that has always been in the back of my mind is this.

If quality is important and the product is "not" built down to a price then why would a builder use brass skin fittings and sea cocks???

My wife and I were home builders for many years and no industry is more monitored by all levels of government than ours however just because something "met the code" didn't mean that it was well built. We had our own standards that meant that for many parts of construction we simply built well beyond code because our experience taught us that there are areas that should not be built cheaply.
Some of the lower cost homes just met the code and they attracted what we referred to as "poundage buyers", Their expectations were much lower and they got what they paid for.

Back to my question: What does it say about a builder when he knows he is putting substandard material into something he is building?

In our industry we have a saying..If this is how you build where I can see it then what do you do where I can't.
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Why is it HR is considered any different to other production builders... apart from more expensive than an equivalent length Bavaria or Beneteau...
Pay either the difference and I'm sure they'd happily upgrade to HR standard.. its called 'Extras' I believe..
I love these discussions- they are complex, often emotional and the rational outcomes are sometimes simple to derive, and sometimes impossible to derive.

For some prestige buyers just spending more than others answers the need. For others, having a hull hand laid up, such as many smaller and pricier builders do, is worth spending more on rather than having a hull built using chopper guns. A boat hand built in France is going to be more expensive to build than one made on the production line. A hand built Rolls or Aston Martin tends to have more flaws and higher tolerances than European production models but buyers often enjoy the customization options and appreciate the craftsmanship that this brings, not just the softer leather or luxury ride. Others can't understand why anyone would buy a car that has half a dozen problems when it comes out of the finishing shop.

I too am a residential property developer and can assure you that in our business there is a noticeable difference in the construction of a high end house versus a middle of the road house irrespective of the difference in the quality of fittings or finishings. For one, look carefully at the job the tiler did in the bathrooms and you will know what one difference is between the quality of the two. That assumes, of course, that you have a builder of integrity in both examples, and we all know that trait is often lacking in the marine and home building industries. I am sure Robert has seen that too often.

Philosophies differ, but usually, if you're smart, you get what you pay for.
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Old 05-03-2014, 22:01   #158
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Maybe I'm a simple minded soul, but ....

If my house lets me down, say a drain-fitting fails at 4am, I might feel let down.

whereas if my boat drain-fitting fails, I might get a sort of drowning feeling.

- - - -

I personally have a real problem with the increasing tendency, presumably a sort of "pushback" against perceived elitism, against using different terms for things on boats.

We have staterooms, we have bathrooms, we have kitchens, helmsmen are called drivers, and they turn left and right. I swear I saw one the other day reaching for the indicator stalk.

I realise this risks sounding like an elitist argument, but I strongly feel it's not necessary to pretend a boat is better than a house, it's just DIFFERENT.

and I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of those differences, because it can be important when the chips are down and there's no fallback.

Whoever thought brass was a smart material for seacocks was not reminding themselves what it is that seacocks exist to exclude.

In this case, you'd think the clue was in the name, but conceivably they call them 'those valvey things' ...

or perhaps they thought that "bronze" was just a word yacht club and arty types used, when talking about brass, in order to feel superior to others.
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Old 05-03-2014, 22:43   #159
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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You should take a ride on the TGV, drink a St. Julien, eat just about anything French, but particularly something from a Patisserie or a fromage, check out their secondary schools, read up on their healthcare system,visit the Musée d'Orsay, see their fabulous architectural masterpieces, etc., etc., and on and on. Your comment is a ridiculously myopic point of ignorance. While few countries have a paucity of narrow mindedness in the realm of global understanding our two countries pretty much lead the pack in the western world, something your comment embodies in full.

Thank you. I would go to France just to eat. I have found them to be great people.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:46   #160
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

True, you get what you pay for, there's no denying the fact, but even within a price point there are differences in quality. It all depends on what your looking for, sometimes people are wowed by things that have no bearing on the quality of a boats construction, it all depends on what you need out of the boat. It also depends on how long you intend to own the boat, if buying new that usually means 10 years or more since the depreciation in value hits hardest in the first few years, if you trade or sell a new boat within that initial period you lose big.
In that first ten years the quality of construction, hardware, rigging, systems and finish kick in, there are enough things on a boat that need annual attention to start with, you don't want to have to replace hardware that was too cheap to start with.
Look beyond the interiors, look really hard at the structure and equipment on the vessel, look under the floorboards and in the engine compartment, inspect the standing rigging and running rigging, what's the quality of the parts and the quality of the installation? You might be surprised at the difference even within the same price point.
Even though it's an emotional purchase some logic has to come into the picture, the high of that new boat rapture can wear off quickly if it starts to fall apart soon after splashing it. Once you own it you have to maintain it, how much do you want to spend in time and money to keep it seaworthy?
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:20   #161
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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We attended the New England boat show last week. We were quite shocked by how cheap everything seemed to be on the Beneteaus. In our view, The Hunter 40 was much nicer, with a higher quality interior, which seemed to make more Sense. The open concept on the Beneteau 38 is just plain strange.
I was at the Annapolis boat show last October. I looked at the Beneteaus carefully, especially the Sense 50, since that's on my short list. I didn't notice any problems with quality at all. In fact, it looked damned impressive. The Sense is also an innovative design. Except for Seaward RKs, I can't think of another production boat that gives you something different than the standard master cabin forward/dual cabins aft/galley & salon in the middle layout.

Another consideration. A lot of people seem to think the thick heavy woodwork on some yachts (like HR) implies quality. It does, but it's damn heavy. It also looks awfully dated. Catamarans used to have little to no interior woodwork because they are more weight sensitive. They have since changed, because people preferred to see wood and so that's what they bought. But that is also a lot of extra weight. My point is that some of the lighter woods/particle board used on boats is a weight saving consideration, not necessarily a reflection of "cheapness".
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:02   #162
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

Most of what people are talking about here is what the boat looks like in 10 years. When you've looked through a lot of used boats and sailed them the differences in original build quality come to the fore.
All boats look good at the shows, the seller would be nuts to bring one that didn't, it's what happens after the show and 10 years down the road. No matter how well you maintain a boat if the original wasn't robust enough it will become a money pit. Ever had to drop the keel on a 10 year old boat? You shouldn't have to, but it happens. The list goes on and on.
In the quest to deliver what the customer want's for a price they can afford every production company turns out a stinker from time to time, not as often as they used to but it happens.
I won't name specific makers since some of the more thin skinned take great offense, but even within the price point makers there are big differences but I have no problem accepting the shortcomings of some of the boat brands I've owned over the years, including ones I've bought to flip. It's been an eye opening experience, I don't tend to be wowed by the flash anymore, I tend to see how that new "revolutionary" design pans out over time, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I just take what works and go with it.
I don't look down on the production makers, I just tend to look at a boat in a cold hard manner and try to determine if it will hold up over time. The production boat makers have allowed many to be on the water who would otherwise not have the means to do so, like every other product some are better than others, it's up to the buyer to determine that.
Take a look at their older boats, then see what you think, some have improved over time some have gone in the other direction.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:28   #163
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

First particle board isn't light weight, it's heavy, and yes it's cheap, screams low quality, no way around that.

I started out looking at newer production boats as I can afford one and found what I thought was a VERY well cared for boat that had knowledgeable upgrades and a caring owner, yes it was a little more expensive that it's siblings, it was 10 yrs old, but looked new.

During survey I found two very serious structural "issues" that to me were of great concern in what I though was a very well kept boat, current owner turned white, he didn't know about these problems.

Since then I have started looking at older, but hopefully better built boats that are in the same price range due to their age, yes age itself will have problems that are related to the passage of time, but hopefully at least the hull will be sound?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:51   #164
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

If the boat you are buying has brass fittings below the waterline and particle board cabinets your are buying a cheaply built boat and where you cant see further short cuts will have taken place...this is just common sense. I'm not saying don't buy it or beware or it will fail you etc. I'm simply stating the obvious, the boat was built cheap and is cheap.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:05   #165
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Re: Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

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During survey I found two very serious structural "issues" that to me were of great concern in what I though was a very well kept boat, current owner turned white, he didn't know about these problems.
Great point. Many boats have boat owners' associations, and websites, which have documented all "issues" with particular boats. In many cases, there have been issues identified that are not boat-specific, for example the alternator bracket upgrade requirement for M25 engines that was issued by Universal in 1991 (!!!) and we still find people who are unaware of it. Just last week some WAG asked if he should do the upgrade even though he had the part in hand! Turns out when the old bracket lets go, and it will 'cuz it's a casting, it slams into the timing cover which is out of production and there simply aren't any "around" because so many brackets failed over the years. A $100 part, no longer available, now makes an entire engine replacement necessary because skippers are just too lazy or stupid to do some research. Mine failed in 1998, I had the part on the boat and hadn't installed it yet!!! I became one of a handful of skippers trying to get the word out!

In the "internet age" if you don't do some/a lot of research on the boat you're looking at, you're just plain stupid. The owners association websites, blogs, forums like this and other available information is priceless.
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