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Old 07-01-2017, 12:13   #121
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Assumes he understands that he needs them to begin with, that said; I'm sure he can request the interior to be bluewater friendly also, as well as request sharp corners to be rounded. Maybe doable if requested early into the build and if paying extra. You are still going to get thrown around in a vast spacious interior regardless.



That's racers not bluewater cruisers crewed by a couple, and an open deck like the one on the Sense is never safe.



Looks like an old wooden boat.


I think something like this would perform better. Kraken Yachts | The home of Kraken Luxury Yachts


In any case, Polux.
Perhaps you should consult krakenyachts or manufactures in general about hull design and on how to "properly" design a bluewater sailboat rather than telling us? Could perhaps become lucrative for you.

I like the Kraken 58 and 66! Well priced, well designed bluewater cruisers. I doubt Polux will agree since you can't ride the chine, the interiors don't look like an office, the rudder appears to skeg-hung (and there's only one), and the transoms are not wide open...
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:24   #122
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Smile Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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I like the boats I like for personal reasons regarding sailing and way of life. I don't want to sell what I like regarding sailing to others even if there are many, including liveaboards and circumnavigators that share my preferences in what the type of sailing boats they prefere and I am not talking about all modern sailboats, but just about a particular type of performance cruiser.

It is you that keep saying that the type of boats I prefere are only good or adapted to Mediterranean sailing (against all evidence) and just because I have sailed the last years on the med (never mind all the others that sail and even circumnavigate or liveaborad on that type of boat).

If your egocentric point of view or my liberal point of view in what concerns the variety of boats different cruisers prefere for cruising puts you more close to Donald than me I don't know. Don't know also what Donald thinks about the subject but he does not seem much liberal to me.
Polux I know your a good guy and you absolutely love sailing and keeping yourself up to date on the latest and greatest. The side that you just "might" share with Donald is the thickness of your skin
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:59   #123
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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I like the Kraken 58 and 66! Well priced, well designed bluewater cruisers. I doubt Polux will agree since you can't ride the chine, the interiors don't look like an office, the rudder appears to skeg-hung (and there's only one), and the transoms are not wide open...
I've had great experience with my Amel in adverse conditions and the Kraken shares similar design philosophy and that's something I like, it was interesting to see that a new manufacturer went that way. I very much doubt they did so out of ignorance in terms of other available designs and solutions.

Riding the chine bouncing back and forth can cause great concern and increase stress for a crew and imo not desirable when cruising, you shouldn't have to constantly work the boat and do trimming etc.

Edit.
Yes they do look nice it will be interesting to see how well they will do against the competition. Oyster, Discovery, Amel...
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Old 07-01-2017, 14:58   #124
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Look as an old hulls roll through the waves, not getting enough speed to escape breaking waves from behind.

When the boat rolls a big part of the overall stability is lost and if a breaking wave catch it on the end of one of those deep rolls the stability (the RM) that it can offer to prevent a capsize is just reduced about a half regarding what he had when not heeled.
For this reason is why I am upgrading to a more modern design. I have taken countless breaking waves over the stern of my Mariner 40 because even at 35 knot winds I cannot do anymore than 7.5- 8 knots downwind unless I am surfing down a wave. But I never came close to capsizing although I get thrown around a lot when the wind waves are more than 6 ft.
Would be really nice if I could go faster than wave speed!

Regarding handles and getting thrown around. at one time when I was sleeping, the boat heeled over so violently I broke through my lee cloth flew across the cabin and hit my head on the corner of the dinette table and knocked myself out. all the handles and the 12 ft beam didn't help me at that time hahaha
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Old 07-01-2017, 15:37   #125
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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For this reason is why I am upgrading to a more modern design. I have taken countless breaking waves over the stern of my Mariner 40 because even at 35 knot winds I cannot do anymore than 7.5- 8 knots downwind unless I am surfing down a wave. But I never came close to capsizing although I get thrown around a lot when the wind waves are more than 6 ft.
Would be really nice if I could go faster than wave speed!
H
Regarding handles and getting thrown around. at one time when I was sleeping, the boat heeled over so violently I broke through my lee cloth flew across the cabin and hit my head on the corner of the dinette table and knocked myself out. all the handles and the 12 ft beam didn't help me at that time hahaha
For a 40 ft boat you can't expect much more than 7.5-8 knots. Your going to have to find a real light weight flyer with a big rig and flat bottomed to do much better. At those speeds your good for 180 miles a day which when loaded for cruising is an awesome 24 HR run.
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Old 07-01-2017, 15:58   #126
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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For a 40 ft boat you can't expect much more than 7.5-8 knots. Your going to have to find a real light weight flyer with a big rig and flat bottomed to do much better. At those speeds your good for 180 miles a day which when loaded for cruising is an awesome 24 HR run.
Yep, thus the reason why I'm in the market for a 50'+ boat.

Actually my best 24 hr run was about 150 miles, but that was right on the edge of out of control at times hahaha.
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Old 07-01-2017, 17:48   #127
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
I've had great experience with my Amel in adverse conditions and the Kraken shares similar design philosophy and that's something I like, it was interesting to see that a new manufacturer went that way. I very much doubt they did so out of ignorance in terms of other available designs and solutions.

This is pretty safe explanatory: there is one lonely new manufacturer aiming at "conservative" tastes which shows how much of a niche market it represents, and please stop trying to justify your liking for it with these absurd "before was safer and better".
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Old 07-01-2017, 18:12   #128
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
For a 40 ft boat you can't expect much more than 7.5-8 knots. Your going to have to find a real light weight flyer with a big rig and flat bottomed to do much better. At those speeds your good for 180 miles a day which when loaded for cruising is an awesome 24 HR run.
With over 30k wind, even with over 20k winds modern 40ft performance cruisers will be able to do low two digit speeds with ease and can go upwind doing better than 7.5k with less wind if the waves are not big. They can also go at a beam reach at over 8k with way less wind.

The basic difference between them (different types of performance cruisers) is not the ability to do this but the easiness in controlling the boat downwind while doing that and in what regards that, performance cruisers with hulls based on solo racers are much better than performance cruisers based on hulls that come from IRC racers.

Here you have a 38ft performance cruiser with an hull based on a solo racer:


They have now (JPK) a 45ft that was elected boat of the year by the readers of a French sail magazine, after having tested several boats. That one should be faster. But what makes these boats (all fast performance cruisers) really fast is the easiness with what they reach hull speed or very close with very little wind.

IRC hull base performance cruisers will go better upwind and will sail a bit better with very light winds, having the boats about the same size and weight.

For cruising extensively on the trade winds performance cruisers with a hull based on solo racers are a better choice due to a superior easiness in going downwind fast on autopilot.
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Old 07-01-2017, 19:07   #129
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
This is pretty safe explanatory: there is one lonely new manufacturer aiming at "conservative" tastes which shows how much of a niche market it represents, and please stop trying to justify your liking for it with these absurd "before was safer and better".
I was not saying anything but since you commented: I have nothing against medium weight sailing boats that suit well the sailors that prefer to cruise on that kind of yacht but regarding the Kraken, after a quick search I believe very few boat were built (2?) and only the 66ft.

I doubt that the design is from the last years because the hull design is outdated and I am not referring to the type. Here is the hull shape:


The same designer has proposed a kraken 50 and a kraken 58 featuring a more modern hull:

But no photos on the Gallery means that no yachts have ever been made. They are made in Hong Kong.

Regarding that size and type there are brands that are selling much more and with good reason, at least in what concerns design, like the Gunfleet 58 and 74:


or the new Oysters:

or the CBN 66:

or the Halberg Rassy 64:

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Old 07-01-2017, 19:18   #130
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Wink Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
With over 30k wind, even with over 20k winds modern 40ft performance cruisers will be able to do low two digit speeds with ease and can go upwind doing better than 7.5k with less wind if the waves are not big. They can also go at a beam reach at over 8k with way less wind.

The basic difference between them (different types of performance cruisers) is not the ability to do this but the easiness in controlling the boat downwind while doing that and in what regards that, performance cruisers with hulls based on solo racers are much better than performance cruisers based on hulls that come from IRC racers.

Here you have a 38ft performance cruiser with an hull based on a solo racer:


They have now (JPK) a 45ft that was elected boat of the year by the readers of a French sail magazine, after having tested several boats. That one should be faster. But what makes these boats (all fast performance cruisers) really fast is the easiness with what they reach hull speed or very close with very little wind.

IRC hull base performance cruisers will go better upwind and will sail a bit better with very light winds, having the boats about the same size and weight.

For cruising extensively on the trade winds performance cruisers with a hull based on solo racers are a better choice due to a superior easiness in going downwind fast on autopilot.
I am very aware of this but if you took one of these new and very quick racers or cruiser racers and loaded it up the way many cruisers load their boats they would not be doing double digit speeds with 15 knot winds, not even 20 knots. It's no different with Cats, they have videos of them doing 15 knots but the average cat owner is lucky to get mono speeds out of them after genset, washing machines, etc. Weight kills performance on any boat!
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Old 07-01-2017, 19:23   #131
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I was not saying anything but since you commented: I have nothing against medium weight sailing boats that suit well the sailors that prefer to cruise on that kind of yacht but regarding the Kraken, after a quick search I believe very few boat were built (2?) and only the 66ft.

I doubt that the design is from the last years because the hull design is outdated and I am not referring to the type. Here is the hull shape:


The same designer has proposed a kraken 50 and a kraken 58 featuring a more modern hull:

But no photos on the Gallery means that no yachts have ever been made. They are made in Hong Kong.

Regarding that size and type there are brands that are selling much more and with good reason, at least in what concerns design, like the Gunfleet 58 and 74:


or the new Oysters:

or the CBN 66:

or the Halberg Rassy 64:

These are great cruising boats as you can load them up and still get decent speed and you have a place for everything which is very nice. You do however need a sizeable bank account to play in this league.
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Old 07-01-2017, 19:32   #132
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I was not saying nothing but since you commented: I have nothing against medium weight sailing boats that suit well to the sailors that prefer to cruise on that kind of boat but regarding that particular boat, the Kraken, after a quick search I believe very few boat were built (2?) and only the 66ft.



I doubt that the design is from the last years because the hull design is outdated and I am not referring to the type.



Here is the hull shape:





The same designer has proposed a kraken 50 and a kraken 58 featuring a more modern hull:





But no photos on the Gallery means that no yachts have been made. They are made in Hong Kong.



Regarding that size and type there are brands that are selling much more and with good reason, at least in what concerns design, like the Gunfleet 58 and 74:





Or the new Oysters:



or the CBN 66:



Polux,

Your rationale, deduction, and reasoning are not only unfounded, but also highly opinined, somewhat ignorant and highly laughable.
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Old 07-01-2017, 19:40   #133
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude View Post
This is pretty safe explanatory: there is one lonely new manufacturer aiming at "conservative" tastes which shows how much of a niche market it represents, and please stop trying to justify your liking for it with these absurd "before was safer and better".


Are you kidding?! You are so completely wrong, it is hardly worth the time to tell you how confused you are...
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Old 07-01-2017, 19:55   #134
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Polux,

Your rationale, deduction, and reasoning are not only unfounded, but also highly opinined, somewhat ignorant and highly laughable.
I believe that you should explain why my reasoning is unfounded, ignorant and laughable. I find your words insulting.
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Old 07-01-2017, 20:26   #135
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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I believe that you should explain why my reasoning is unfounded, ignorant and laughable. I find your words insulting.


I'll try to explain, but the words will fall on deaf ears...

Primarily, you call anything that isn't a pizza-boat outdated. If a particular manufacturer does not produce a number of units that is satisfactory to you, you summarily write them off as a non-entity. Further, it would seem, if a particular manufacturer has an insufficient number of photographs available, they, too, are invalidated. Your comparisons are myopic and heavily biased to the type of sailing you do, not what is being discussed or debated. Lastly, you give no real credible arguments for all of your euro-design pandering - other than stating numerous times that these mass production designs are fueled by popular demand - not seaworthy or time-tested practical matters.

I have no doubt that you are a passionate sailor. I also have no doubt that the type of sailing you enjoy will not have you crossing oceans or finding yourself in truly perilous situations. There is nothing wrong with that. What I find offensive is your very narrow view of how others should or should not find purpose in their vessel - and what is or what is not, a current - or rather, a non-outdated design regarding naval architecture to that purpose. If you were the sole expert, I highly doubt you'd be spending such a large amount of time defending your position on CF.
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