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Old 28-12-2016, 17:06   #61
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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I've been on the sense 57 and wasn't overly impressed tbh. I just don't get the whole monomaran thing. Lovely boat but not for us. Off to the London boat show next month so will view the sense 51, maybe a second view might change my mind.
I find the monomarn term a very inadequate way to describe the boat. In what regards sailing there is no big difference regarding an Oceanis except in what regards the interior that, contrary to the Oceanis does not point for chartering work, having less cabins, a bigger saloon and much more storage space.

Regarding space besides those difference, it allows a more easy interaction between cockpit space and the interior (and is regarding that the Sense has some characteristics that are typically of catamaran's living space and that are one of their biggest advantages). That is possible due to the non existence of the back cabins (storage space now) that allows a much smaller difference between the cockpit and the boat interior floor.

Only three steps, compared with the five of the Oceanis 55, the diference between being on a basement or not (even if a nice one)



It is regarding that easiness between interior and exterior space that huge tent covering all cockpit makes all the difference in winter, almost duplicating living space.

Regarding sailing this boat comes with a cutter rig that will make the sailing on rough conditions a lot easier, a rig not common at all in mass production boats but common on voyage boats.

But in the end you are right, it is your boat, buy the one you like more
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Old 28-12-2016, 17:24   #62
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

These are beautiful boats.

But I urge you to take a look at them again. What will happen WHEN (not IF) you are hit by a wave on the port side, whip below decks on the port side. You will note there are not enough handholds to stop you from flying across the cabin.

One need not be mid-Atlantic for that to happen. IMHO ponder a dealer retrofit. From experience flying across the cabin of a French boat can result in a pain when you suddenly stop on the other side.
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Old 05-01-2017, 16:30   #63
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

West coast that's a interesting and varied selection. Those Nordhavns are lovely, a friend of mine is looking at buying one of them and sailing away.

I would say using the word monomaran is a adequate way to describe the Sense, the Beneteau dealer I spoke with also called it that, his words, not mine.

I've been on both now and would say storage is similar, back deck and saloon the Oceanis wins, guest bedrooms, machinery location/ space the Sense wins.

The new Sense range comes with the fancy hard bimini, a nice touch. Also the sail Sqm fwd and main is identical with the mast further aft which according to Beneteau makes for a smoother sail, and less heel due to the hard chined hull. I'm guessing over the previous Sense.

All ready identified the lack of hand holds in the saloon and that would be addressed by retro fitting some more, again, hardly a deal breaker though.

Off to the London boat show at the weekend, hopefully get to view the new Sense 51.
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Old 05-01-2017, 18:57   #64
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Chines on cruising boats have little effect on sailing, it's more marketing and the additional space. Race boats and race boat speeds are different as the chines do add to performance.
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Old 05-01-2017, 19:10   #65
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Chines on cruising boats have little effect on sailing, it's more marketing and the additional space. Race boats and race boat speeds are different as the chines do add to performance.
Chines on cruising boats have an effect on cruising boats but not necessarily the same that on racing boats even if on racing boats they can serve also different purposes, depending if they are crewed racers or solo racers.

On cruising boats they serve to limit heel, offering more stability (RM) at a given reduced angle of heel and limit roll downwind.

Seating on the chine is a common expression to describe what happens when a cruising boat hits the chine when heeling. If you really try you can pass that chine, that is studied to be at the angle the boat was designed to sail better upwind, but you have really to try harder, much harder than if that chine was not there.

Chines on cruising boats have not to do with performance but with making sailing easier and more comfortable even if that easiness can lead sometimes to sail the boat faster, especially if the boat is sailed solo or with a small crew.
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Old 05-01-2017, 19:17   #66
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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,,,

I would say using the word monomaran is a adequate way to describe the Sense, the Beneteau dealer I spoke with also called it that, his words, not mine.
....
Yes if the word is not used with a negative connotation and does not refer to sailing or a hull difference but only to the smaller difference between the cockpit floor and the cabin floor.

Most that use that word monomaran are not referring to the space continuity between the cockpit and interior but to the hull and the way the boat sails and that does not make sense since it is not different than many other cruisers, including the Oceanis.
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Old 05-01-2017, 20:18   #67
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

The problem I have with these new models is the style.
Yachts are becoming more like floating offices and if I was looking at the interior only, I never would guess that it is a boat. It has no evidence of anything nautical. the designers are going away from any curved surface, maybe because they are just to lazy or its too time consuming, or the young generation of designers just do not have any artistic or creative ability.

Love the sailing performance though. Now just to have a boat with the same performance, but looks like a yacht, instead of an office! hahaha.
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Old 05-01-2017, 21:50   #68
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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The problem I have with these new models is the style.
Yachts are becoming more like floating offices and if I was looking at the interior only, I never would guess that it is a boat. It has no evidence of anything nautical. the designers are going away from any curved surface, maybe because they are just to lazy or its too time consuming, or the young generation of designers just do not have any artistic or creative ability.

Love the sailing performance though. Now just to have a boat with the same performance, but looks like a yacht, instead of an office! hahaha.


I could not agree more. I live and cruise aboard our Nauticat 52, and love the nautical personality of our little ship. I certainly mean no disrespect to the OP, or anyone else who prefers the modern look of the boats mentioned, but after seeing them first-hand, I can only liken them to something made by IKEA. This said, I really like the looks and performance of the Moody 54DS. I just wish the designers at Hanse had married them with a little bit of real wood below deck.

Trendy designs for sure. Who knows, maybe they will stand the test of time...
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Old 06-01-2017, 02:13   #69
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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I could not agree more. I live and cruise aboard our Nauticat 52, and love the nautical personality of our little ship. I certainly mean no disrespect to the OP, or anyone else who prefers the modern look of the boats mentioned, but after seeing them first-hand, I can only liken them to something made by IKEA. This said, I really like the looks and performance of the Moody 54DS. I just wish the designers at Hanse had married them with a little bit of real wood below deck.

Trendy designs for sure. Who knows, maybe they will stand the test of time...
Taste is subjective. IKEA has a good feel for great design in my opinion. So liking something to IKEA to me sounds like a compliment. They have made good looking and practical furniture affordable, but at the expense of quality. When buying furniture I do go for the clean, modern look, but do search out better quality.
For a good clean interior with a nautical feel give me a pogo anytime...
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Old 06-01-2017, 05:43   #70
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Chines on cruising boats have an effect on cruising boats but not necessarily the same that on racing boats even if on racing boats they can serve also different purposes, depending if they are crewed racers or solo racers.

On cruising boats they serve to limit heel, offering more stability (RM) at a given reduced angle of heel and limit roll downwind.

Seating on the chine is a common expression to describe what happens when a cruising boat hits the chine when heeling. If you really try you can pass that chine, that is studied to be at the angle the boat was designed to sail better upwind, but you have really to try harder, much harder than if that chine was not there.

Chines on cruising boats have not to do with performance but with making sailing easier and more comfortable even if that easiness can lead sometimes to sail the boat faster, especially if the boat is sailed solo or with a small crew.
There are others who do boat reviews for a living that disagree with your opinions. Most of what I have read was that chines on a fully loaded cruising boat made little to no difference.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:07   #71
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

In my humble opinion and from taking Westlawn School of Yacht Design years ago. Chines help create lift at higher speeds and help the boat get up on plane. not sure about any benefit of displacement hulls that cannot reach those speeds. I would think the added drag on cruisers would just slow them down.

Now we are seeing chines on the fast cruisers, like the new Beneteau's. but I see that they are above the waterline until the boat heels, and then hopefully the boat is going fast enough to benefit from the lifting effect they are meant for. Otherwise it may be just a marketing tool so that they can look like the Volvo racing boats and mentally the customer thinks it will go faster, and of course it ads bragging rights.

Its kind of like putting air dams on your sports car that the 200 MPH race cars have, they look cool but probably your car cannot go fast enough for them to have any affect.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:10   #72
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by SV Windrush II View Post
The problem I have with these new models is the style.
Yachts are becoming more like floating offices and if I was looking at the interior only, I never would guess that it is a boat. It has no evidence of anything nautical. the designers are going away from any curved surface, maybe because they are just to lazy or its too time consuming, or the young generation of designers just do not have any artistic or creative ability.

Love the sailing performance though. Now just to have a boat with the same performance, but looks like a yacht, instead of an office! hahaha.
The only reason styling goes the way it goes is because most sailors prefere it that way. They are there to sell boats and to give people what they want and prefere.

Some years ago most Americans had a more conservative taste and jeanneaus interiors were made thinking mostly on the American taste....but surprise surprise, The Oceanis 38, the one with the more modern, less conservative style, was a big hit on the US. That take them by surprise and since them I don't think they care about distinctions anymore.

Regarding style in Europe, that is reflected on the boats since most of them are sold in Europe, generally speaking, the most advanced in style, meaning the less conservative, are the Italians, followed by the French. The Germans are a bit more conservative and the Nordics are the more conservative.

So I would say that for your taste look for Nordic boats, boats that still offer interiors like these:









The reason you cannot find such conservative styling on mass produced boats is simply because there is not a big enough market for them, meaning not enough percentage of tastes for that conservative style, regarding boats that are aimed for a more consensual taste, a less conservative one.

Hanse when they bought Moody tried to explore that small market niche of sailors with very conservative tastes and the first Moody made by them, that were not very expensive, had a very conservative taste (like the first Hanse) and looked like this:





I believe they still make them by command but the sales were very low and soon they were selling in bigger numbers the much more popular DS series that have a much less conservative interior:



Bottom point, if you like conservative interiors you will fin them, even more conservative than the ones I posted, but not on mass production boats simply because there is not enough market for those conservative tastes and those boats are pointed to a big market and average tastes.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:14   #73
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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In my humble opinion and from taking Westlawn School of Yacht Design years ago. Chines help create lift at higher speeds and help the boat get up on plane. not sure about any benefit of displacement hulls that cannot reach those speeds. I would think the added drag on cruisers would just slow them down.

Now we are seeing chines on the fast cruisers, like the new Beneteau's. but I see that they are above the waterline until the boat heels, and then hopefully the boat is going fast enough to benefit from the lifting effect they are meant for. Otherwise it may be just a marketing tool so that they can look like the Volvo racing boats and mentally the customer thinks it will go faster, and of course it ads bragging rights hahaha.
I think you probably nailed it and to be fair with Polux he is not claiming any speed gains, he just thinks it might add to stability but in my mind it's a marketing game to make it look like a race boat with the side benifit of a little more room.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:22   #74
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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There are others who do boat reviews for a living that disagree with your opinions. Most of what I have read was that chines on a fully loaded cruising boat made little to no difference.
That's bull. The one you refer calls them training wheels. That is in fact a good description regarding the ones that are more commonly used on cruising boats, the ones that serve to limit heel and increase stiffness at a given point of heel.

Why the heel he would call them training wheels if they would not do anything?

Yes, like training wheels on a bicycle they make sailing easier. Sure, like training wheels they add nothing to performance to most cruising boats unless you really need the help of those training wheels and that happens when you sail a boat solo or with a short crew.

To read about the different function of different types of chines on different types of sailing boats you can look at my blog where I have several posts about them, regarding racing and cruising.

Regarding cruising boats probably the best one is the comparison between the Azuree 46 and the Dehler 46, one using chines the other not, being the Dehler the fastest (with a crew). Note that there are racing crewed sailboats with chines, but different ones, very high, just to increase a little the RM at high points of heel, at the best heel angle to go fast upwind on those boats.









The diference regarding absolute performance is so slight that in what regards racing boats with a full crew for relatively short offshore races some designers don't use them at all. But for solo offshore racing all designers use them simply because solo on the boat you go faster with some help even if with a full crew without that help you could go even faster. That is true for racing boats and even more to cruising boats, regarding a small or inexperienced crew.

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Old 06-01-2017, 06:33   #75
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

It's not so much a conservative design as it is a well tested blue water design that is both practical and safe. Most "modern" designs are not suited for blue water because they're neither practical or safe. This also extents to the design of their hull, keel and rudder. The main reason they sell is basically because they are not sold to sailors as such, but to weekend cruisers who are poorly educated on what qualifies as a seaworthy design and also mostly hang around the docks and therefore want more space and a design that is more akin to their - as an example - kitchen at home.

This poses a problem for manufactures such as Oyster, Discovery and others because they have to try to build sailboats that appeal to both groups therefore they end up making compromises. Still, safety should override everything on a blue water sailboat. Most who think safety think crew only, however, safety starts with the design of the boat and the choice of boat.

Edit.
Out of those designs I prefer the Swedish one, not just for safety and build quality, but because of the darker wood. If you are in the Mediterranean or in the BVI etc the sun is very strong and it is nice to escape the sun going down into a darker interior opposed to a light one in which you have to use shades to not hurt your eyes.

This one is stunning.

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