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Old 28-11-2010, 12:31   #76
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The bottom of our boat where the keel is attached is over 200 mm thick... thats just over 8 inches at the joint...
.
Randy, are you really sure about this number? I find it so far off scale as to be unbelievable. No reason for this sort of scantlings...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 28-11-2010, 12:38   #77
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True or not, bottom standing for cleaning issues seems to have been proven as a myth as Randy has qualified. Reef bouncing maybe not - but who really cares? That leaves rudder stress via to sea anchor like conditions, or flotsam/jetsam. But depending on model manufacturing, and backup rudder...maybe no worries at all.

So tankage and storage is the only concern?
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Old 28-11-2010, 12:49   #78
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Randy, are you really sure about this number? I find it so far off scale as to be unbelievable. No reason for this sort of scantlings...

Cheers,

Jim
Jim
I might be wrong but I think, those were the numbers on Scotts breakdown on his articicle for the FIRST42...
If hes out there, maybe he can shead some lite in the thickness..
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Old 28-11-2010, 13:21   #79
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Ok... lets clear up a few things here... tieing up alongside a wall for drying out and scrubbing/cleaning/servicing the bottom is extremely common over here in Europe.. in the Channel Isle's and France for example the tidal range can be 30ft+... you just tie up to a harbour wall... run your spinnaker or main halyard ashore to use as a steadying line and as the tide falls adjust your mooring lines till you touch bottom.... then you work like crazy to get everything you want done before she floats again.... turn her round and repeat the process for the other side... full keel/fin keel/whatever....
As for skegs... they were introduced to stop rudders falling of modern designs through corrosion.. resulting from lazy gits who could not be bothered drying out and dropping the rudder to inspect, clean and regrease... its got bugger all to do with strengthening or protecting the rudder... take a good look next time... all the rudder does is sit with a pintle in a slot in the skeg.... thats its only attatchment... anything more would prevent the rudder from working..
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Old 28-11-2010, 13:29   #80
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Boatmansky - i have extreme doubts with what u r saying historically I'm afraid - based on many designers and high name cruiser people comments and recommendations.

hmmm...

Perhaps because we yanks are more lazy than Euros and tend to hit a lot of logs?
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Old 28-11-2010, 13:35   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Boatmansky - i have extreme doubts with what u r saying historically I'm afraid - based on many designers and high name cruiser people comments and recommendations.

hmmm...

Perhaps because we yanks are more lazy than Euros and tend to hit a lot of logs?
Or you spend to much time going backwards.... we go forwards and use the bow to deflect them...
Check your history mate...
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Old 28-11-2010, 14:09   #82
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I like your style Boatman!!!
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Old 28-11-2010, 14:39   #83
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Thank you Simon.....
When I am old I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And sandals, and say we've no money for butter.

I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.

I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers in other peoples' gardens
And learn to spit.

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickles for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.
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Old 28-11-2010, 15:54   #84
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You may wear purple and wiggle toes
You might like Hunters, or Beneteau
You might think smart and we don't know
or think we all as friend or foe

You might sleep soundly with a log magnet bow
No worry sinking or "KAHPOW!"
You might walk nakid in Lisboa town
No worry bout the "tsks" or frowns

But if I may be just so bold
to say your pockets may have holes
beware your rabits and your joins
Saltymonkey sneaks looking…for your coins.

* * *

I'm SaltyMonkey of the sea
They call me that because its me.
I loosten bolts on Beneteaus
and pull cotter pins from ladies clothes
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Old 28-11-2010, 16:40   #85
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The reason I say that a spade rudder is better at sea is that it's by far the best hydrodynamic form, couple that to the moder
Fast underbody of modern cruisers and you see why virtually all manufacturers have gone over to it. The skeg is really a throwback to the days of structurally weak wooden rudders and a recent well know gesigner has said that many skeg designs it's the rudder holding the skeg on.

Dave

Anyway now we have a partial skeg design in most cases a design that isn't optimised for anything and it really a marketing concept to convince people that it's a stronger design.
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Old 28-11-2010, 16:48   #86
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For performance, the spade is a dream. And backing is fantastic.
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Old 29-11-2010, 07:40   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Randy, are you really sure about this number? I find it so far off scale as to be unbelievable. No reason for this sort of scantlings...

Cheers,

Jim
Jim--

Randy is relying on some numbers that appeared in the article that I penned for a magazine and what he quoted is what appeared in the article. That, however, was incorrected due to some editing errors that occured in trying to cut the length of the article (and it was still one of the longest bat reviews they published). The keelson on the First 42 is 200mm+/- wide and about 40mm thick at the point where the keel bolts pass through the hull to secure the keel. (I tried to get an errata posted but that went nowhere.)

Please note that I would have interlineated this info sooner in this thread but we just returned from our annual Thanksgiving cruise and this is the first time I have been on a computer in some while. For what it's worth, I have refrained from adding anything to this thread as it's a somewhat useless discussion. Many opinions on Beneteau's manufacturing, quality et al are voiced by those with little or no knowledge of either, either specifically or in general, I also find that opinions on technical/engineering matters on forums such as this are commonly most vociferously expressed by those without any particular quaifications on the matter at hand. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, others must judge how much weight the give such expressions.

What I find most interesting about these discussions is the frequency with which the opinions expressed by an owner of a particual class/make/design of yacht is dismissed out of hand, frequently I think, based on the supposition that any opinion in favor of the class/make/design is given to justify or rationalize the choice/decision of the person expressing the opinion (or as a appologia for his poor selection of a yacht) rather than simply observations by an owner with experience on the yacht in question--yet who better to express an opinion than one who has used the yacht and experienced its advantages and draw-backs?

As for the Beneteau line of yachts, speaking as an owner that has sailed one of the yachts in fair weather and foul, near- and off-shore, they are fine, reliable and sturdy yachts. Speaking as an experienced registered Structural Engineer and having done rather entensive research on the yachts, including discussions with the designer-German Frers (whom I quoted), and manufacturing engineers, for my article, the yachts are very well built with no corners cut for the sake of economy. They are relatively inexpensive because of the number of yachts built, the use of the same components across lines/sizes of boats, and the avoidence of small, finnicky, costly detailing that adds visual appeal but little true utility to more costly yachts. With that, I an sufficiently confident in the yacht to willingly take my wife and family, whom I value more the Rubies, off-shore confident that we shall arrive at our destination quickly and in fine fettle. Whether the OP or anyone else chooses to value my opinion, or not, frankly Scarlott, I don't give a ....

FWIW
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Old 29-11-2010, 08:37   #88
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...yet who better to express an opinion than one who has used the yacht and experienced its advantages and draw-backs?
Ummm...someone without any pecuniary interest or any unconscious or conscious bias based on an investment? Someone who is less inclined to flippantly say "Oh, a good sail boat is the one for you" instead of taking a real risk of doing the hard research and expressing a pragmatic logical opinion. Those tend, I think, to be independent **professionals...

With respect to your measurements, these are hard salient facts that are extremely valuable to know and cannot be disputed. Unfortunately, they are also hard to come by along with other facts about a particular design that are hidden by the manufacturer. Beneteau is well known for this. Try performing simple NA engineering calculations and waste an hour trying to look up some base numbers. Never mind the more complicated ones regarding stability.

The older First 35, 38 and 40.5 are well known for being strong capable boats and have proven themselves not only in journey but also in "facts". The others are a mystery to many of us. If say, was looking for a Pearson, I could go online now and easily get a consensus for the most solid and reputable models out of that manufacturers history from "professionals" - this just a surface. For the Beneteau you could not. One reason some of us keep coming back for answers.

What I have learned:
- There is no "Family Line"
- Unlike other manufacturers lines, no professionals know or are willing to take a overview of particular model suggestions for cruising on Beneteau.
- Many threads exist on CF about Beneteau and none of them consolidate anything into a cheat sheet of facts and ratings.
- People DO want to know.
- Someone could make a fortune writing a book "10 Beneteau's to Take You Around the World"

PS: Randy's boat is OK and strong but the delta is not the place to be for a race horse that needs sunlight.

** a post response above opinions were credible because he has not only owned two, and sailed them many miles, but also is a professional delivery skipper.
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Old 29-11-2010, 09:18   #89
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....in the article that I penned for a magazine...
Are there references to the article(s) that I could review? Thanks
Don
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Old 29-11-2010, 09:49   #90
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PS: Randy's boat is OK and strong but the delta is not the place to be for a race horse that needs sunlight.
Again Salty,
you're talking out your backside again and have no knowledge of what you say..
We just returned from a 3 month trip gooffing off in southern California, and it isnt out of the norm for us to pull out of her on a friday morning and head for Montery for a cup of clam chowder for lunch on Saturday, only to be back here ready to open the shop on Monday morning..
And your knowledge of the delta probably ranks right up there with your first hand knowledge of sailboats..
The California Delta has over 1500 miles of waterways and much of it can be sailed with a deep draft keel..
The "Ditch Run" and the "South Tower Race" are two of the most trying races in northern california.. The south tower being a 24 hour event, and both run right throu my back yard..
Befor you go running you mouth, you need to get your backside in order..
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