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Old 08-11-2015, 21:40   #16
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by Besseges View Post
The Oceanis 473 is the pure cruising version, and the First 47.7 is the cruiser racer version.
Just to be really clear, these two boats have completely different hulls, and everything else for that matter. Normally the First and Beneteau (Oceanis) boats do not share hull shapes or molds. In this case they're both really excellent sailing boats, but even the "cruising" short rig version of the 47.7 is quite a bit faster than the 473, if also a but more poundy if you know what I mean.

I have some good friends cruising the South Pacific in a short rig 47.7 who are loving it, and so far have had great success with the boat (which had already cruised the med, then crossed the Atlantic, through the canal, and up to San Diego all on its own bottom).
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:59   #17
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by gjorgensen View Post
Just to be really clear, these two boats have completely different hulls, and everything else for that matter. Normally the First and Beneteau (Oceanis) boats do not share hull shapes or molds. In this case they're both really excellent sailing boats, but even the "cruising" short rig version of the 47.7 is quite a bit faster than the 473, if also a but more poundy if you know what I mean.
...
I agree with you that these are two fine boats, even if very different but I will disagree in what regards the First 44.7 pounding more. Yes, the First has a slightly bigger beam but that is not what really count in what regards pounding but the design of the forward section of the boat and as you can see the First has finer entries, as it would be expected on a performance cruiser versus a main market cruisers.

Look at how the First from amidships forward it is a slimmer boat.

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Old 09-11-2015, 08:48   #18
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
I prefer the 461 to the 473... It is a Farr design, no transom issues and just as much space as the 473, really. Unless you can find a 47.7 First, which are hard to come by in the States.

I did some research on the 461 a few years ago, more than a few people said their boats chewed up autopilots. I don't know if the units were undersized or if the boat just has too much weather helm. A couple of owners stated that the drives failed after one or two days at sea. There are always 47.7 boats popping up for sale in the states, the 44.7 is extremely rare for some reason. I like the 44.7 because of the up sized hardware (mast,boom, winches), keel stepped mast, rod rigging, bigger wheel.
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Old 09-11-2015, 14:05   #19
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree with you that these are two fine boats, even if very different but I will disagree in what regards the First 44.7 pounding more. Yes, the First has a slightly bigger beam but that is not what really count in what regards pounding but the design of the forward section of the boat and as you can see the First has finer entries, as it would be expected on a performance cruiser versus a main market cruisers.

Look at how the First from amidships forward it is a slimmer boat.
I was referring to the 47.7 BTW, not the 44.7 although they are similar.

I'll freely admit that I have very limited miles in the 473, but a fair number in a 47.7, and I've owned a 40.7 for 14 years now. The reason I think the 47.7 will pound a little more is based on the underbody forward of the mast compared to the 473, plus the experience with my boat. Having seen both out of the water (right next to each other actually), the 473 has a much softer, rounder turn of the bilge forward of the mast, while the 47.7 is fairly flat up front. That contributes greatly to slamming, and we've seen in with our boat vs. e.g. the 393 or newer Beneteau 40. I think the degree of this with our boat is probably pretty similar to the new Beneteau cruising boats, which also have very flat fore-sections from what I've seen. I agree one of the nice things about the First series is the much narrow bow angle helping cleave the waves better and just generally helping upwind efficiency (at the expense of volume up front).

That said, I think pounding is kind of an overrated worry in general. Any boat will slam if you try to power straight into big enough waves, so it's all a matter of degrees and how far you need to fall off to stop it. The tradeoff is that we go better to weather than a boat with a full front section, so we're slamming for a shorter amount of time. In practice, my friends who are cruising the SoPac in a 47.7 love it and have no regrets. Off the wind the boat is silly fast and stable, and even loaded up it seems to do better upwind than most heavily loaded cruising boats, all of which give them a lot of options. You can't really point high enough once loaded to slam anyway, so it would only happen if you needed to motor straight into the waves, which you rarely if ever do for any length of time.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:29   #20
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

gjorgensen, very interesting read and I agree with this "pounding is kind of an overrated worry in general. Any boat will slam if you try to power straight into big enough waves, so it's all a matter of degrees and how far you need to fall off to stop it"

Sorry about the 44.7 reference, I was meaning the 47.7 and the boat that I posted was the 47.7. Sometimes it is just easier to see the differences between the boats on the boat drawings than looking to the boats, specially if you don't have them side by side out of the water at the same time. If you look at the lateral plans that I posted you will see that the First 47.7 has more rocker forward (the underwater angle of the hull after the bow) than the 473 and that means that it has a less flat hull on that area.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:36   #21
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
I did some research on the 461 a few years ago, more than a few people said their boats chewed up autopilots. I don't know if the units were undersized or if the boat just has too much weather helm. A couple of owners stated that the drives failed after one or two days at sea. There are always 47.7 boats popping up for sale in the states, the 44.7 is extremely rare for some reason. I like the 44.7 because of the up sized hardware (mast,boom, winches), keel stepped mast, rod rigging, bigger wheel.
I don't believe that problem about the autopilots... The 461 is a fine sailing vessel- should not have an issue with an autopilot. Also there are 4 First 47's in North America for sale on yachtworld
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Old 10-11-2015, 15:20   #22
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

Do you think these boats (473/461) can be considered as blue water yachts for trade winds sailing, especially on Pacific?
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Old 10-11-2015, 15:25   #23
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

a 461/473 could easily go around the world.... if not you've got problems as a sailor
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Old 10-11-2015, 22:21   #24
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
I don't believe that problem about the autopilots... The 461 is a fine sailing vessel- should not have an issue with an autopilot. Also there are 4 First 47's in North America for sale on yachtworld
Here is one reference for the boat (461/45f5) chewing up autopilots. I remember the other posts stating how bad the weather helm was in certain conditions.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...owtopic=140183

If it is the same hull as the 45F5 then I wouldn't recommend it for offshore "long distance" work- I delivered a couple of 45F5,s from France to Marigot Bay (Moorings) back in 1990/1991 and my only memories of those trips can be likened to crossing the Atlantic in a cocktail shaker. Fast, yes. Comfortable, in a marina yes. At sea in any kind of a chop, bloody awful and slam like hell. Trade wind sailing, white knuckles and forget the autopilot, (The recommended unit for the boat in those days was the Autohelm 6000 with the captive drum and we blew ours (gears stripped) on both trips after about 2 days in the trades
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Old 10-11-2015, 23:01   #25
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

Beneteau has begun to use the Oceanis name in the U.S. marketing as well to designate their value line.

They're differentiating the lines thusly:

First: Performance first, very light, spartan for cruising, few stock options, generally a single layout. Generally relatively expensive due to materials used and hardware quality.

Oceanis: Value line. Leads with design, but finished with mid-grade materials, some rough edges, bare boats with a lot of stock options. Solid hardware and simple systems preferring mass-produced components. Generally available in multiple layouts per model. Light to medium weight stock. Priced to compete.

Sense: Luxury line. Very well appointed boats that come fully loaded with few stock options, generally rather heavy. 2X to 4X more than the same sized Oceanis generally.

None of the lines share hulls or layouts across lines, but the lines do have design consistency within the line across models.
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Old 11-11-2015, 05:32   #26
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
Beneteau has begun to use the Oceanis name in the U.S. marketing as well to designate their value line.

They're differentiating the lines thusly:

First: Performance first, very light, spartan for cruising, few stock options, generally a single layout. Generally relatively expensive due to materials used and hardware quality.

Oceanis: Value line. Leads with design, but finished with mid-grade materials, some rough edges, bare boats with a lot of stock options. Solid hardware and simple systems preferring mass-produced components. Generally available in multiple layouts per model. Light to medium weight stock. Priced to compete.

Sense: Luxury line. Very well appointed boats that come fully loaded with few stock options, generally rather heavy. 2X to 4X more than the same sized Oceanis generally.

None of the lines share hulls or layouts across lines, but the lines do have design consistency within the line across models.
I agree but I would not call the interior of the First spartan, specially the ones of the bigger boats (45 and 50). Even the ones of the smaller boats have nothing of Spartan. Here a 360 visit at the interior of the First 30:

http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspi.../first_30_.swf

The First series are performance cruisers, faster then the Oceanis but not very light by modern standards. The better sailing hardware makes them more expensive and because they are more maximized towards sailing they offer less interior space (finer entries).

Many think that Beneteau is on the process of finishing with his First line, that was on the origin of Beneteau. Or that or they are preparing to make a completely different line, not based on boats that can also be used successfully on crewed regattas (IRC designed), but on boats derived from Open solo racers. I hope that's the second case

The First 45 interior:
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:03   #27
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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Here is one reference for the boat (461/45f5) chewing up autopilots. I remember the other posts stating how bad the weather helm was in certain conditions.

Bendytoy 461 - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

If it is the same hull as the 45F5 then I wouldn't recommend it for offshore "long distance" work- I delivered a couple of 45F5,s from France to Marigot Bay (Moorings) back in 1990/1991 and my only memories of those trips can be likened to crossing the Atlantic in a cocktail shaker. Fast, yes. Comfortable, in a marina yes. At sea in any kind of a chop, bloody awful and slam like hell. Trade wind sailing, white knuckles and forget the autopilot, (The recommended unit for the boat in those days was the Autohelm 6000 with the captive drum and we blew ours (gears stripped) on both trips after about 2 days in the trades
I read the thread you linked but I could only find any references regarding a Beneteau 461 having problems with an hard steering or with autopilots.

The references on that thread regards almost all to the First 55F5 that has nothing to do with 461 and does not even belong to the same series of Beneteau. No autopilot references in what regards the 461.

I have always heard nice things about the First 45F5 and on that thread there are other two sailors that made crossings on the 45F5 and their opinion regarding the boat is much more moderated than yours. One of them even says he likes the boat. It is refereed that one of the boats that was sailed had made already 4 or 5 races yo Hawaii and returns.

Bendytoy 461 - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

I guess we all are heavily influenced by our own preferences in what regards judging other boats.
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Old 13-11-2015, 06:49   #28
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

One could always just install the proper sized autopilot RAM... or an oversized one.
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:02   #29
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I read the thread you linked but I could only find any references regarding a Beneteau 461 having problems with an hard steering or with autopilots.

The references on that thread regards almost all to the First 55F5 that has nothing to do with 461 and does not even belong to the same series of Beneteau. No autopilot references in what regards the 461.

I have always heard nice things about the First 45F5 and on that thread there are other two sailors that made crossings on the 45F5 and their opinion regarding the boat is much more moderated than yours. One of them even says he likes the boat. It is refereed that one of the boats that was sailed had made already 4 or 5 races yo Hawaii and returns.

Bendytoy 461 - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

I guess we all are heavily influenced by our own preferences in what regards judging other boats.

Having owned Highland Fling for some ten years now. She is a year 2000 build M463 (the Moorings version of the 461). She was in the Tortola Moorings fleet for five years before we purchased her then four years in a secondary charter operation, and now for the last six years our Caribbean sailing home from November to May. We have in the last six years put on almost 5,000 miles sailing her, Pre that she had around 8,000 miles on her log before we changed the tridata for a dedicated speed display. So after 13,000 miles logged our autohelm history is as follows.

ONE The boat was fitted as standard with a Raymarine Type 300 Course Computer with a Type Two rotary drive mounted underneath the main wheel drive shaft and driving that via a chain and two sprockets.

TWO Problems with that installation were MINOR!!! The motor brushes wore out, I guess it was being used a lot :-) AND the sprocket on the motor did have an embarrasing tendency to come loose, sovled with locktite on the shaft and grub screws.

THREE We have done a few upgrades. One we replaced the Course Computer with a more modern S3G version which has an onboard gyro. NOT that I have seen a big difference in course keeping ability in the Caribbean seas but the S3G does have nine levels of sensitivity where as the old unit had only three.

Two We have added a Type Two Long Linear Drive unit and added a tiller to the rudder stock/quadrant. The plan is to have a change over switch to choose which actuator is used. The thinking behind this addition of a Linear actuator acting directly on the rudder stock was to have a direct drive to the rudder that did not involve the steering cables.

Three We made a major upgrade to the rudder bearings. Previously they were just two plain stainless steel sleeves/sliding bearing. WE wanted to chage the top bearing but Beneteau could not supply. So we fitted a self-aligning ball/roller bearing in a custom made mount. We also have a bigger steering wheel :-)

Highland Fling is a dream to sail we love her and drive her quite hard and she goes like a witch. 10 hours from St Martin to North Sound Virgin Gorda is typical, sadly not so much fun coming back.

This boat the Oceanis 461 has the same Farr designed hull as the First 45f5.

Have we had autohelm problems NO, yes we have had a few minor maintenance issues and we have taken some sensible steps to improve the function and the feel of the steering but only to make 'the experience' nicer. Friends with other Bennies are amazed at how light and sweet the steering is on Highland Fling now, one in fact pulled their rudder and refixed the sliding bearings to try and make their steering lighter......sadly that made little improvement as it is having the top bearing a self-aligning roller bearing that ensures that the two bearings are in perfect alignment I somehow don't think Beneteau used lazer alignment for the seperate top and bottom simple sliding bearings at build time.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:14   #30
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Re: Beneteau 473 vis Beneteau Oceanis 473 what is difference?

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...
This boat the Oceanis 461 has the same Farr designed hull as the First 45f5.
...
All the rest is good information but regarding this I don't understand why you say that: the First 45f5 is a smaller boat (44.92 to 46.59' with smaller waterline (36.75' to 39.37'9, with a bigger beam (14.08' to 13.95') with different hull lines, finer entries and a narrower transom. The only thing they have in common is that both have been designed by Farr and belong to the same generation of designs

Beneteau 461:


First 45F5:
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