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Old 29-11-2015, 11:02   #46
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
You are making these recommendations on what, your experience as an ocean crossing cruiser or are you a yacht designer of greater reputation than those at Beneteau?

I think we need to have a small curriculum vitae visible to the reader, so that the correct weight can be given to the advice posted.
I'm not making recommendations. I said "what I would do". Beneteau design for mass production as well as the charter market. They are fine designs for what they are designed for.
Is there anything that I've said that "I would do" that you wouldn't do, and why not?
You are free to disagree with what I say if you like and say why. Attack the message, not the messenger.
Take my points one by one and tell me why I'm wrong.
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Old 29-11-2015, 13:08   #47
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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OK, I will post to that



Ha! Internet forums would wither and die in a week if we took your advice to only get informed advice... and even surveyors can only offer opinions.

And if internet forums withered and died what would we do all day??????????????????????????????
Get a real job I suppose
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Old 30-11-2015, 00:20   #48
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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And this is why cruisers bug out to the north or well south to NZ or go to Oz the cyclone season is upon us and only a fool would be in the area without a cyclone plan in place.
Simon there have unfortunately been many yachts lost in the South Pacific, as well as the Tasman Sea, not only during the cyclone season. Quite a few also around the coast of NZ. Those people were not fools. They were usually caught in unexpected conditions. Yachts I can easily remember that were lost with all crew were Ponsonby Express, Lion Heart, Smackwater Jack. They were all yachts that I knew. There have been many more, names I can't instantly remember.

There was a coastal race I was going to sail in a friends yacht, that due to suddenly changing conditions we decided not to start, while still getting ready. Some started and 2 lives were lost. Their yacht departed a berth near us and never came back.

It is not to say that people shouldn't go sailing the oceans, just that they should have suitable boats. If they already have a yacht that can sleep 8 with 3 double beds and 4 hatches in the the cabin top, and maybe a front window in the cabin, they might want to make some changes before crossing the oceans.

If they are buying anew especially sailing solo they might want something designed for the job.

Don't you think so?
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Old 30-11-2015, 05:46   #49
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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All this might be true but where is that at? Why not just buy an older cruising boat that is designed for the intended purpose.
..
I guess you are talking about a more expensive (in its time) higher quality older boat with a similar price of the newer Beneteau 46?

The problem here is comparing an older boat with a considerably newer one as if the older boat was as seaworthy now as it was when it was built 20 or 30 years ago and that is only true if the previous owner has wasted a fortune maintaining it. It will not be true on 99% of the cases.

It will be almost for sure a slower boat that will not sail as well, specially in light winds.
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Old 30-11-2015, 06:08   #50
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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Well if I were intending to sail a factory mass produced boat around the World I would certainly be doing some strengthening and other modifications first.
But I am used to successfully doing such work and not afraid of doing it.
I would probably start with the main hatchway and reduce its size. Possibly I'd look at the volume of the cockpit and check whether it's floor could support a ton of water. At the same time I would see if the cockpit drains are adequate. I would also look at the fore hatch and likely strengthen that. I would certainly look at the cabin windows and likely reducing their size. Maybe I would make a small hard dodger. I would likely make changes to the galley and install hand grips inside the cabin. I could go on but I won't.
I would also be getting experienced opinions from others with the boat in front of them.
Before Jessica Watson sailed Emma's Pink Lady around the world her family reportedly spent a small fortune on preparing it.
It would be a fools errand to do nothing.
I agree that somethings has to be done but some of the ones you mention, like reducing the size of hatches or reducing the size of cabin "windows" reducing their size or making sure if the cockpit is enough strong to handle a ton of water does not make sense.

I agree however that it is a good idea to see what are the small mods that have been made by the ones that have used mass production boats to circumnavigate (and they are many). Here you have some with many blogs where they tell what they have modified. The ones that I did not posted the blogs you have information regarding how to find them (if they exist) namely on the ARC entry lists, where the blogs are normally referred. This has been posted elsewhere so maybe some information is not relevant:

a Bavaria 40 (2003) circumnavigating:


A cheap Beneteau Cyclades 50.3, bought new in 2006 and sailed extensively for 6 years (almost a circumnavigation). Their owners said about the boat on the blog after having sold it:...."as Bondi Tram has been sold in New Zealand! All good things come to an end sooner or later, and we are settling back in Sydney for the moment...Bondi Tram was a great boat, and we had very few problems during the six years that we owned her. Very strong, easy to handle, and reasonably quick. Beneteau make great yachts at amazing prices."

Bondi Tram - The Launch

A Beneteau 393 that circumnavigated solo sailed, this one with a well known sailor on this forum:

He says about his boat: "Our boat, the beautiful Sea Life is a Beneteau 393. She is 39 feet (11.9 meters). She is a spacious owners version with 2 cabins and 2 heads. Sea Life is a very beamy (wide) boat with a spacious cockpit perfect for catching up with friends both new and old. We have 12 opening hacthes, with an extra 8 windows and a large companion way which light the sunshine and ocean breeze flow through. We have loads and loads of storage space for provisions and 4 HUGE lazerettes (3 deep enough for Nic to disappear in standing up). She is a very fast and dry boat at sea, very comfortable at anchor and underway.....we just love her so much....we even give her cuddles...and she likes that!"
and on an interview:
"We were extremely lucky to be able to buy a production boat ex-charter. Production boats have put good cruising boats at a price-point low enough so many people can set off, and ex-charter boats are even cheaper."

Our Life At Sea - Mark

Scott, Donna, Nathan, and Celeste circumnavigated from 1988 to 1996 on Bluejay, a J-36, then a very fast performance cruiser and today still a fast modern performance cruiser.

Regarding the choice of the best boat to cruise extensively, taking into consideration their vast experience they said:
"We have always believed in the phrase, “a fast passage is a safe passage”. We have always had borderline racing boats. A teak interior is beautiful but you are going to want to move without running an engine constantly, choose a boat that can sail. "
They changed boat in 2009 and the choice show that their convictions remain, they had chose a recent boat of the same type a very fast Tripp 47 performance cruiser and the reasons had to do with the kids that are now grown ups and need more space and privacy to receive friends.
Production Boats Fit For Blue Water - Page 7 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Some of the production boats that on the last two years appeared on the Puddle Jump (Western Mexico to South Pacific) - data posted by Tacomasailor. He points also that none of those boats sunk or disappeared: Jeanneau i39, J/120, J/130, Jeanneau 42 (2), Jeanneau 45, Hanse 531, Jeanneau 53,Dufor 32, Hunter 45, Beneteau 43, Bavaria 38, Beneteau 423, Beneteau 50 (2), Hunter 50, Dufour 51, Bavaria 42, Beneteau 445, Jeanneau 47, Beneteau First 40.7, Jeanneau 39, Bavaria 49, Beneteau First 44.7, Jeanneau 37, Hunter 386, Jeanneau 42.

He took also the trouble to make a count regarding the brands with more boats that made that Pacific 2500k passage between 2012 and 2015. Here are the numbers:
Beneteau 35, Morgan 13, Jeanneau 12, Catalina 9, Hunter 8, Islander 6, Pearson 4, Dufour 4. Of course if we were talking about an Atlantic crossing, that I do no even care to mention, the percentage of Beneteaus, Jeanneaus and Bavarias would be overwhelming.

A Brand new 2005 (at the the time ) Bavaria 36 that circumnavigated solo without problems.

the sailor said about the boat and some of the conditions he encountered:
"The weather was like a washing machine for days, endless squalls, incredible cloud formations, changing winds, gusts over 40 knots, irregular seas of 5m and visibility of less then two miles. Most of the time it was impossible to sleep due to alarms, squalls and beating sails. Nautilus was bashed by waves and rolled so much, 'I really wondered how easily she seemed to handle the situation! .. My best 24 hour run was 182 miles....I outpaced many mono hulls and even a catamaran which left at the same time - the mono hulls by as much as 2 - 5 days and the catamaran by 1 day! .."
sail-world.com -- Bavaria 36 Cruiser Nautilus - World Tour

A 1998 Beneteau First 40.7, a performance that are making a many year's long circumnavigation that includes high latitude (Antarctic) sailing and cruising:

Giebateau: 058 Bestemming Zuid Korea...

A Bavaria 36 that circumnavigated not once, but twice and one of them by the horn, solo:

Genuíno Madruga em volta ao Mundo

A Jeanneau 34ft. Circumnavigated solo, by the horn and non-stop:

Alain Maignan, il en rêvait, il l'a fait!

A Canadian 2007 Bavaria 42, a circumnavigation in 5 years:

Voyage autour du monde

A new Delphia 40.3 circumnavigated by the horn with a single stop.

Tomasz Cichocki in DELPHIA 40.3 completes solitary around-the-world sail

A Jeanneau SO 49 sailing since 2008. Derry Ryder, an Irish retired doctor, first circumnavigated on one direction and now is circumnavigating on the opposed direction, heading East to West, this time with his wife.

Avocet's Adventures Around the World - Re: ex hiva oa

A First 44.7 that is now circumnavigating. A boat that they own since 2008 and that has sailed extensively, including an Atlantic loop and 4 Fastnet races among many smaller ones.

6 ways to sail around the world ? Yachting World

A Bavaria 44 that after being used as charter boat on the med during the 5 or 6 years of his life was bought by Kathrin et Uwe Petraschek that without any significant modifications on the boat started from Greece a circumnavigation by the Northwest passage (2009). They had no special problems and returned to Greece two years and 38000nm later...and to their jobs.

Perithia

Another Bavaria 44 that circumnavigated with a family:

zeilboot senang

A Beneteau Oceanis 423 that circumnavigated during 6 years with a family:

Gryphon II - Chris and Lorraine Marchant

A Lagoon 400 at the middle of a circumnavigation with a family (3 years sailing):

http://le-zorus-oceanique.over-blog.fr/]Le blog de Fabrice, Sandrine, Chloé et Amandine - Journal et lien de communication avec nos proches et amis pendant notre boucle autour du monde[/IMG]

Another Bavaria 44 that circumnavigated:

Weltumseglung 2011 bis 2013

A Bavaria 38 that circumnavigated:

Weltumsegelung der SY Blue Pearl

More production boats that are circumnavigating, this time with the 2014 ARCWorld: A Jeanneau SO 39, a Beneteau 40, a Jeanneau SO 49, a Lagoon 38, a Lagoon 620 and a Hanse 47. In 2012/2013: Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 45, Beneteau 50, Beneteau Oceanis 461, Bavaria 44, Jeanneau SO 52.2, Jeanneau SO 54DS, a Catana 522, a Catana 581 and a Lagoon 380. On the ARC world 2010/2011 among the 19 boats : Alliaura Previlege 435; Alliaura Privilege 435, Alliaura Privilege 445, Lagoon 440, Bavaria 47, Benetau Cyclades 50.5, Hanse 531. On the 2008 ARCWorld finished a circumnavigation: Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS. Bigger number the boats by brand: a match between Beneteau and Oyster.
.....
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Old 30-11-2015, 06:26   #51
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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Simon there have unfortunately been many yachts lost in the South Pacific, as well as the Tasman Sea, not only during the cyclone season. Quite a few also around the coast of NZ. Those people were not fools. They were usually caught in unexpected conditions. Yachts I can easily remember that were lost with all crew were Ponsonby Express, Lion Heart, Smackwater Jack. They were all yachts that I knew. There have been many more, names I can't instantly remember.

There was a coastal race I was going to sail in a friends yacht, that due to suddenly changing conditions we decided not to start, while still getting ready. Some started and 2 lives were lost. Their yacht departed a berth near us and never came back.

It is not to say that people shouldn't go sailing the oceans, just that they should have suitable boats. If they already have a yacht that can sleep 8 with 3 double beds and 4 hatches in the the cabin top, and maybe a front window in the cabin, they might want to make some changes before crossing the oceans.

If they are buying anew especially sailing solo they might want something designed for the job.

Don't you think so?
Going by what you are saying no boat is suitable unless heavily modified. Adding hand holds and anchor points is fine, but to start modifying integral parts of a well designed boat that has been given an ocean rating, and proved itself many times over. Make all the mods you want but most folks want comfort and functuality. If you feel you need to change the design that is up to you but you can bet you'll spend a fortune and devalue your boat no end. People cruise on all types of boat, some may not be a suitable as others and yes we occasionally get caught out by weather but we get by..a few don't that's the way it is. No cruiser is silly enough to fight the odds when it comes to weather, storms are just that storms, you deal with it but you don't put yourself in an area during its cyclone season without a sound plan. If all these boats out there are not up to the job they are designed for then why are they still in business.

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Old 30-11-2015, 07:49   #52
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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Here you have some with many blogs where they tell what they have modified.
Thanks mate! Great post! I'm bookmarking it.

Thanks for the work putting it together.


Mark
PS I am gonna chop my keel off or do something else so my boat is more 'sailorly' . Maybe chop half the mast down and make it a ketch rig. Much better.
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Old 30-11-2015, 12:01   #53
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

[QUOTE=Polux;1974640]I agree that somethings has to be done but some of the ones you mention, like reducing the size of hatches or reducing the size of cabin "windows" reducing their size or making sure if the cockpit is enough strong to handle a ton of water does not make sense.

I guess it wouldn't make sense until you get a wave in the cockpit. "Making sure" doesn't necessarily mean changing anything. As far as windows are concerned , some folk make exterior slide in covers for offshore. They are things I'd do with any boat. You don't need to if you don't think it makes sense.

I certainly wouldn't consider a circumnavigation in my own boat, though the same design has been successfully raced both around NZ, and NZ North Island 2 person.
Thanks for the nice photos.
So what are the "somethings has to be done" that you agree? I'm waiting to see if you make sense.
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Old 30-11-2015, 14:04   #54
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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I agree that somethings has to be done but some of the ones you mention, like reducing the size of hatches or reducing the size of cabin "windows" reducing their size or making sure if the cockpit is enough strong to handle a ton of water does not make sense.

I agree however that it is a good idea to see what are the small mods that have been made by the ones that have used mass production boats to circumnavigate (and they are many). Here you have some with many blogs where they tell what they have modified. The ones that I did not posted the blogs you have information regarding how to find them (if they exist) namely on the ARC entry lists, where the blogs are normally referred. This has been posted elsewhere so maybe some information is not relevant:

.....

Great post.
Thx.

It shows that : If you want - you can
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Old 30-11-2015, 15:29   #55
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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Quote:
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I agree that somethings has to be done but some of the ones you mention, like reducing the size of hatches or reducing the size of cabin "windows" reducing their size or making sure if the cockpit is enough strong to handle a ton of water does not make sense.
I guess it wouldn't make sense until you get a wave in the cockpit. "Making sure" doesn't necessarily mean changing anything. As far as windows are concerned , some folk make exterior slide in covers for offshore. They are things I'd do with any boat. You don't need to if you don't think it makes sense.

I certainly wouldn't consider a circumnavigation in my own boat, though the same design has been successfully raced both around NZ, and NZ North Island 2 person.
Thanks for the nice photos.
So what are the "somethings has to be done" that you agree? I'm waiting to see if you make sense.
Regarding the protection for side lateral "windows" it all depends on the boat and the size of the them. Most modern boats have small ones and even more modern ones almost don't have them on the side of the cockpit, with exception of two small ones, one for the galley and one on the opposed side.

To better ventilation and to control humidity it makes sense to mount a webasto type of heater/ventilator.

Modern cockpits are not like old ones where the water would remain for a considerable period of time diminishing the boat stability and increasing the weight on the cockpit deck. Most of modern boats or have an open transom or a semi open one allowing the quick evacuation of the water of any wave that crashes over the boat.

Regarding the more common alterations you will know as much as me if you go through those blogs and see what they have modified, or at least as much, because I have being paying attention to the subject and looking at the mods sailors that cross oceans on mass production boats does to their boats.

The first group of alterations have to do with the production and storing of energy. A bigger battery bank, two alternators or a bigger one, solar panels, wind generator, hydrogenarator or a genset are some of the more common alterations.

Other group of alterations regards tankage and pass for using flexible water tanks or in alternative a watermaker and ways of storing more diesel that can pass also for flexible tanks. A pump for sea water (for the galley) should also be mounted. These need vary with the sail boat performance. Fast boats need less, slow boats need more.

The last but not less important group respects safety and among the important items there is radar, AIS, and a way to receive weather information that in most cases passes by a satphone and some dedicated program on a laptop to receive Grib files. A Navtex can also be useful.

Another important safety concern regards to prepare the boat for sailing in bad weather and regarding this some kind of heavy weather sail should be included. There are a system that can be mounted over the jib or genoa (Storm bag) or a dedicated removable stay should be mounted for a heavy weather sail.

Most modern boats are light enough and sufficiently well balanced to get away with only a forward storm sail, however the ones that have not a furling system for the main should mount a small third reef on the main (most modern boats come only with two). Personally I would prefer a non furling main but many have circumnavigated with a furling main without problem.

Another safety item that is important is a fixed system of lines and attachment points for a harness.

Depending on each boat the interior should be checked to see if more handholds are necessary and if it is the case to provide them. Also depending of the boat interior a sleeping place should be prepared (if it is not exist already) for allowing for a comfortable place for sleeping even in bad weather.

A good number of spares is very important, with special relevance to the more common changed pieces on the engine and on the autopilot. The autopilot is very important and depending of the model it makes sense to have many spares for it.

The sails need also some back up and at least one spare sail should be carried, not necessarily the main, but for instance a genoa and a jib besides the main and a storm sail.

The rig and mast should be carefully checked and if the standing rig is more than 10 years old should be changed, the chainplates if more than 15 years old can be a problem and should also be inspected carefully and changed if needed, the engine should suffer a big revision if not new.

A sea anchor should also make part of the equipment and some would carry a drogue even if in what regards light modernboats I think a sea anchor is more efficient. Some mean to go up to the mast should also be a part of the equipment unless you recognise that you are not fit enough for that. In any case it is also a good idea to have several hallyards that you can use as substitute if the one you are using brokes.

But in doubt, talk with Mark that knows a lot more than me about that. Nothing like doing a circumnavigation to found out what is needed and what one should have had included in the boat and has forgotten about
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Old 30-11-2015, 16:01   #56
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

A current post from mid Atlantic aboard a bene 423 FYI. Nothing derogatory about benes in particular, just that stuff happens...and if it's gonna happen, it'll happen out there

......
Shapeshifter

Shapeshifter continues toward Martinique despite a broken window, now fixed.
On the 2nd night we had a fixed window knock out of the side of our hull and we took on a lot of water before we could slow it down. At daylight we could see that window had totally gone, it took all the next day to make a new one, fit it and seal it. We have lost our SSB, some computers, phones, ipad but sat phone is still working. We are safe and now look forward to the rest of the trip. We are not pushing too hard, we have good winds and making fair time I think.
Cheers, Colin.
PS Comfortably Numb stayed with us all that night and also gave us some things to help do repair.
......
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Old 30-11-2015, 16:45   #57
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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A current post from mid Atlantic aboard a bene 423 FYI. Nothing derogatory about benes in particular, just that stuff happens...and if it's gonna happen, it'll happen out there

......
Shapeshifter

Shapeshifter continues toward Martinique despite a broken window, now fixed.
On the 2nd night we had a fixed window knock out of the side of our hull and we took on a lot of water before we could slow it down. At daylight we could see that window had totally gone, it took all the next day to make a new one, fit it and seal it. We have lost our SSB, some computers, phones, ipad but sat phone is still working. We are safe and now look forward to the rest of the trip. We are not pushing too hard, we have good winds and making fair time I think.
Cheers, Colin.
PS Comfortably Numb stayed with us all that night and also gave us some things to help do repair.
......

I thought Beneteau yachts were so nimble they could dodge bad weather, so buoyant, no waves ever come on board, and their windows so strong, they never pop out.
All the stuff about adding radar etc goes without needing to be said and applies to any boat.
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Old 30-11-2015, 19:23   #58
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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I thought Beneteau yachts were so nimble they could dodge bad weather, so buoyant, no waves ever come on board, and their windows so strong, they never pop out.
All the stuff about adding radar etc goes without needing to be said and applies to any boat.
You are imagining things. Sh*t can happen on any boats, including Oysters

As I said the modern tendency is for eliminating all side openings to avoid those problems. Many recent designs don't have any, others have them very small.
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Old 30-11-2015, 21:29   #59
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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You are imagining things. Sh*t can happen on any boats, including Oysters

As I said the modern tendency is for eliminating all side openings to avoid those problems. Many recent designs don't have any, others have them very small.
I'm not imagining anything. You can see for yourself on the Beneteau site, big windows, and some with front facing windows. I know most of the modern trends in yachts (you don't need to inform me) and some do have small windows. I can see half a dozen Beneteau in real life any day I want to.

So why do you think there is "this modern tendency for eliminating all side openings to avoid these problems"? That's exactly what I said (not recommended) that I would do. So I'm wrong if I say that but the designers are not wrong if they do it??

As you say Sh*t can happen on any boat which is why I would do something about big windows, and why wouldn't you? It could save losing electronic gear or more.

I'm not knocking the Beneteau, and there are some beautiful Beneteau photos of bikini clad women lounging around the open transoms of Beneteau yachts maybe in the Greek Isles. Why would you go elsewhere?
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Old 30-11-2015, 22:18   #60
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Re: Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

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I'm not knocking the Beneteau,
Yes you are. In a most uneducated way.


Maybe you should go buy a boat yourself.


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