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Old 22-03-2015, 11:09   #61
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

I've not sailed a Salona 38, so obviously I can't talk about its handling of specific performance. It's a beautiful boat and looks to be a serious performer.

Given nearly the same LOA as the Oceanis 38 but a 2 foot shorter LWL, and only weighting only 4% less, it's very unlikely that it's faster than the Oceanis 38, hull stiffening and performance options such as a deeper keel notwithstanding. LWL and displacement dominate hull performance.

The natural hull speed of the Oceanis is clearly higher than the traditional 1.34 factor of the root of LWL, by my calculations it's 1.45. Even if we used the highest empirical number for a pure racing monohull of 1.51,the Salona's shorter LWL doesn't quite match the Oceanis 38 for theoretical speed. It's extremely hard to push through the interfering bow wave beyond hull speed; my boat will easily do 8 knots in 13 knots of wind, but only gets to 10 knots in 25 knots of wind. I know hull speed is a bit of a dated concept, but in speed-length ratio calculations the numbers fall the same way. Longer LWL is by far the best way to increase the speed of a boat, and the Oceanis 38 has the longest LWL of any 38 I've seen.

You don't pay for the wide stern beam of the Oceanis 38 on any point of sail, especially when pointing. Even in extremely light air when she's squat in the water she cannot be overtaken by the older hull designs in the club. Nearly 50% of the hull is out of the water on a typical heel in 12 knot winds. It's very strange to watch the boat's wake emanating from the centerline to the windward side on an upwind leg, but that's what the chine gives you.

Downwind the deeper bow digs in and the exceptionally shallow stern comes up dramatically, also reducing hydrodynamic drag, albeit not by the same factor as when pointing. In any case she performs downwind so much better than the more traditionally shaped previous generation of sister Beneteaus that I've bested 41s with asymmetricals going dead downwind using just the stock roller furling main and 105% Genoa going wing-on-wing in club races. I routinely go dead downwind to the mark when others are reaching with assymetricals that can't do as well 180 to wind as I can do on stock sails with this fantastic hull.

I'm getting phenomenal performance out of this boat on the stock roller-furling sails. The traditional main is 20% larger than mine and fully buttoned. , A hank-on jib would be a better pointer than my RF main. Racing an Oceanis 38 fitted with a fully battened main and performance jib will be daunting for any boat of the same length class.

And given the comparatively cramped quarters of the Salona 38, there's no contest which would make the better family cruiser in my opinion.

Now, for storm performance while passage-making with a crew of two, I'd take the Salona 38 every time. The narrow beam makes for way faster capsize recovery, the rounder hull is almost certainly more sea-kindly, the stiff stainless steel structural bracing will stand up to more force, and the deeper, heavier keel will keep her right-side up longer. No doubt about any of that, and those are much more important characteristics than either speed or spaciousness, so you really need to be honest with yourself about the kind of cruising you'll be doing when you choose a boat.

For San Diego Bay club races and Cabo San Lucas-to-Santa Barbara family trips with my wife and three teens, I've definitely got the right boat.




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Old 22-03-2015, 12:45   #62
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
I've not sailed a Salona 38, so obviously I can't talk about its handling of specific performance. It's a beautiful boat and looks to be a serious performer.

Given nearly the same LOA as the Oceanis 38 but a 2 foot shorter LWL, and only weighting only 4% less, it's very unlikely that it's faster than the Oceanis 38, hull stiffening and performance options such as a deeper keel notwithstanding. LWL and displacement dominate hull performance.

The natural hull speed of the Oceanis is clearly higher than the traditional 1.34 factor of the root of LWL, by my calculations it's 1.45. Even if we used the highest empirical number for a pure racing monohull of 1.51,the Salona's shorter LWL doesn't quite match the Oceanis 38 for theoretical speed. It's extremely hard to push through the interfering bow wave beyond hull speed; my boat will easily do 8 knots in 13 knots of wind, but only gets to 10 knots in 25 knots of wind. I know hull speed is a bit of a dated concept, but in speed-length ratio calculations the numbers fall the same way. Longer LWL is by far the best way to increase the speed of a boat, and the Oceanis 38 has the longest LWL of any 38 I've seen.

You don't pay for the wide stern beam of the Oceanis 38 on any point of sail, especially when pointing. Even in extremely light air when she's squat in the water she cannot be overtaken by the older hull designs in the club. Nearly 50% of the hull is out of the water on a typical heel in 12 knot winds. It's very strange to watch the boat's wake emanating from the centerline to the windward side on an upwind leg, but that's what the chine gives you.

Downwind the deeper bow digs in and the exceptionally shallow stern comes up dramatically, also reducing hydrodynamic drag, albeit not by the same factor as when pointing. In any case she performs downwind so much better than the more traditionally shaped previous generation of sister Beneteaus that I've bested 41s with asymmetricals going dead downwind using just the stock roller furling main and 105% Genoa going wing-on-wing in club races. I routinely go dead downwind to the mark when others are reaching with assymetricals that can't do as well 180 to wind as I can do on stock sails with this fantastic hull.

I'm getting phenomenal performance out of this boat on the stock roller-furling sails. The traditional main is 20% larger than mine and fully buttoned. , A hank-on jib would be a better pointer than my RF main. Racing an Oceanis 38 fitted with a fully battened main and performance jib will be daunting for any boat of the same length class.

And given the comparatively cramped quarters of the Salona 38, there's no contest which would make the better family cruiser in my opinion.

Now, for storm performance while passage-making with a crew of two, I'd take the Salona 38 every time. The narrow beam makes for way faster capsize recovery, the rounder hull is almost certainly more sea-kindly, the stiff stainless steel structural bracing will stand up to more force, and the deeper, heavier keel will keep her right-side up longer. No doubt about any of that, and those are much more important characteristics than either speed or spaciousness, so you really need to be honest with yourself about the kind of cruising you'll be doing when you choose a boat.

For San Diego Bay club races and Cabo San Lucas-to-Santa Barbara family trips with my wife and three teens, I've definitely got the right boat.
..
First let me say that I am not saying that the Salona 38 is better then the Oceanis 38 or vice verse. They are cruising boats with different sailing characteristics and interiors but while the Oceanis 38 is a fast cruising boat the Salona 38 is a performance cruiser and the overall performance is not comparable. The only point where the Oceanis 38 can be faster is downwind solo with strong wind. Join a crew to the Salona or a very experienced skipper and it will be faster too.

The Salona 37/38 (same hull) has a very respectable carrier as racer at the highest level. The 37 won the 2012 world ORCI championship (and several European national championships) and the 38 is just slightly faster. Just to talk about American results a Salona 38 finished the 2014 Miami- Nassau cup race in 3th, finishing ahead of much bigger boats.

Salona 38 Places 3rd at Nassau Cup | Bluenose Yachts

The Salona 38 can come in several specifications being the top one the IBC (same interior). To give you a comparable idea of the performance have a look at the results of the Ocean race of last year ORCI world championship and you will see that the boat outperform in real time a Dehler 41, two First 40.7, a Swan 48s and a Luffe 43MKII.

VelumNG - Race

So comparing the faster version of the Oceanis 38 and the faster version of the Salona 38 makes no sense, the difference is huge. Even regarding the slowest version of the Salona 38 with the Oceanis 38 would be unfair, as I said it is a true performance cruiser versus a fast cruiser. Specially upwind and with like winds the Salona will be much faster. Just to give it an idea with 6K wind the Salona makes 6K and with less wind is faster then the wind.

Also in what regards upwind sailing the Oceanis is not bad but the Salona sails like a sports boat and it will outpoint the Oceanis by many degrees. In fact on a recent test with the Oceanis 38 and the Varianta 37, with weak to medium wind the Oceanis 38 was always slower. The Salona 38 is clearly faster then the Varianta 37.

To give you an idea of the boat upwind performance with only 6K wind the best Salona 38 beat angle is only 43.7TW and the VMG 3.56K. With 12k wind the best beat angle is 39.9TW and the VMG 5.2K.

You have only to look at the SA/D to see the big difference in performance between the boats: Oceanis 38: 19.3, Salona 38: 25.8
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Old 22-03-2015, 19:57   #63
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

Hi Pollux,

That upwind performance is phenomenal! love to sail it and see that light wind performance. Unfortunately since I don't have the boat available to me and have to make guesses about performance based on published numbers, this kind of analysis is very "armchair" in nature.

I did compare SA/D when I looked this up the first time. Sailing magazine seems to think that the Salona 38's SA/D ratio is only 20.3:

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1129-salona-38.html

And they give the Oceanis 38 an SA/D of 20.4:

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1...ceanis-38.html

Since I relied on published numbers that were the same from the same source and presumably calculated the same way, it appeared to be a non-factor to me. I know there are a number of different ways SA/D can be calculated but I do presume Sailing Magazine either uses the same method and their own calculation rather than relying on the manufacturer's numbers which may vary depending on the stock suite of sails. Exactly which method is being used to calculate SA/D varies and might not be directly comparable.

I try to hunt one down in San Diego During the upcoming Beer Cans and see what the reality looks like.

Matt


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Old 23-03-2015, 06:49   #64
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
Hi Pollux,

That upwind performance is phenomenal! love to sail it and see that light wind performance. Unfortunately since I don't have the boat available to me and have to make guesses about performance based on published numbers, this kind of analysis is very "armchair" in nature.

I did compare SA/D when I looked this up the first time. Sailing magazine seems to think that the Salona 38's SA/D ratio is only 20.3:

Salona 38

And they give the Oceanis 38 an SA/D of 20.4:

Beneteau Oceanis 38

Since I relied on published numbers that were the same from the same source and presumably calculated the same way, it appeared to be a non-factor to me. I know there are a number of different ways SA/D can be calculated but I do presume Sailing Magazine either uses the same method and their own calculation rather than relying on the manufacturer's numbers which may vary depending on the stock suite of sails. Exactly which method is being used to calculate SA/D varies and might not be directly comparable.

I try to hunt one down in San Diego During the upcoming Beer Cans and see what the reality looks like.

Matt
Matt, I hope you understand I cannot care less if the Oceanis 38 or the Salona 38 are faster. I am only interested in sailboats and their real performance. I do not own any of the boats and I like both.

I have sailed the Salona 38 without almost no wind, just a thermal light wind. We were test sailing the boat and there was two girls and two men on that boat, one was racer the one a cruiser. The cruising lady was very pissed because when she picked the wheel the boat stopped. For very light wind sailing you have to feel the boat but this is the type of boat that with a good hand at the wheel can make wind. All the other sailors where able to sail the boat between 2.5/3.5K that was a lot more than the wind speed.

For doing this the boat has to have a big SA/D. I don't know where do you get that 20.4 but the boat comes standard with 88.4m2 of sail and weights 6500kg. That gives A SA/D of 25.8.

Salona Yachts

The Oceanis 38 weights 6850kg and has a standard sail area of 65.7m2. That gives a SA/D of 19.6. I don't know how Bob Perry calculated 20.3, but or make a mistake or considered the boat lighter than it was given by the factory or with more sail area then it has standard.

Oceanis 38 - Oceanis 35

The difference in performance between the two boats will be smaller downwind providing the Oceanis 38 is using its huge Asymmetric Spinnaker that has more sail area then the conventional Spinnaker on the Salona. That will give a downwind SA/D for the Oceanis 38 of 42.4 and for the Salona 38 41.0. To this you have to consider the smaller wet area of the Salona but also the easiness that the big hull form stability allow to the Oceanis, that will make more tricky sailing fast the Salona downwind, specially solo or with an inexperienced crew. With really strong winds I have no doubt the Oceanis 38 can go fast and easy downwind.

Regarding the data I provided for the Salona, besides the personal experience it is not of "armchair nature". The numbers I posted are taken from the ORCI rating file. If the boat could not sail his rating (the numbers I posted) it would be a poor boat on ORC racing, but that is quite the contrary, the boat is a winner, being probably able to sail over the rating in some conditions.

I could not find any PHRF rating (or ORCI) for the Oceanis 38 but since you will be doing some racing with the boat it seems we will have one soon

Just for comparison purposes I found a Salona 38 with PHRF, it rates 75, a good one for a 38fter.
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Old 23-03-2015, 21:28   #65
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Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

I love this thread.
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Old 24-03-2015, 15:54   #66
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Matt, I hope you understand I cannot care less if the Oceanis 38 or the Salona 38 are faster. I am only interested in sailboats and their real performance. I do not own any of the boats and I like both.
I enjoy the discussion, so please don't feel as though I'm being defensive at all, I just want to explain my thinking.

I think difference in SA/D is down to the stock suite of sails for each boat vs. "the same suite", i.e., if both boats came with a 105% jib and a standard mainsail, they would have the same SA/D, but the Salona comes with a larger headsail and larger mainsail on a longer boom, and as such lofts and stands up to more sail area. I suppose Sailing magazine is reporting on standardized SA/D numbers rather than what the boat ships with, which would be the numbers reported by the manufacturer. This is why it's hard to compare close SA/D numbers, and any specific hull may have a much different suit of sails than stock.

My club assigned a provisional PHRF of 110 based on similar sized boats, and it seems about right. I've never seen a more official number.
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Old 24-03-2015, 17:18   #67
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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I enjoy the discussion, so please don't feel as though I'm being defensive at all, I just want to explain my thinking.

I think difference in SA/D is down to the stock suite of sails for each boat vs. "the same suite", i.e., if both boats came with a 105% jib and a standard mainsail, they would have the same SA/D, but the Salona comes with a larger headsail and larger mainsail on a longer boom, and as such lofts and stands up to more sail area. I suppose Sailing magazine is reporting on standardized SA/D numbers rather than what the boat ships with, which would be the numbers reported by the manufacturer. This is why it's hard to compare close SA/D numbers, and any specific hull may have a much different suit of sails than stock.

My club assigned a provisional PHRF of 110 based on similar sized boats, and it seems about right. I've never seen a more official number.
Regarding sail area is not as simple as you put it even if you have some reason but only in what regards the frontal sail. Both the boats, the Oceanis 38 and the Salona have Genoas, both small overlapping genoas. I don't know witch is more overlaping but the difference seems just minimal to me:





To be absolutely correct both boats should measure the upwind sailing area with a Jib, but since both have similarly overlapping genoas the difference would be maintained. The diference in sail area from the Salona has to do with a bigger mast and a bigger boom.

Sail areas on sailboats are not arbitrarily dimensioned but had to with the boat stability and sailing characteristics and in the case of the Salona probably they are also proportionally bigger because the boat is a more sportive one.

Regarding the PHRF de 75 one attributed to the Salona 38 makes kind of sense to me (it is jut a bit lower than what is normally attributed to a First 36.7 and a Salona with 75 will not be a top spec one) but the difference in PHRF from the Salona 38 to the Oceanis 38 seems too big to me. I believe the Salona is clearly a faster boat, but 75 to 110 is a huge difference.

With that PHRF you will arrive behind the Salona but I bet you would win on compensated time

Just for comparison a Beneteau 375 has a PHRF of 111 a Hunter 38 has 96.

Unless you are talking about the no spinnaker PHRF but then you will have to use only genoa and main and the biggest speed advantage of the Oceanis 38 is the big asymmetric spinnaker.
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Old 24-03-2015, 21:53   #68
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

Hi Pollux,

Those sails do both look like 105% Genoas to me. The Salona has a considerably deeper keel which imparts more righting moment and so can loft quite a bit more sail.

You're correct, the provisional PHRF I was assigned is the non-spin PHRF, as I don't have one. I do well on corrected time
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Old 25-03-2015, 09:44   #69
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Hi Pollux,

Those sails do both look like 105% Genoas to me. The Salona has a considerably deeper keel which imparts more righting moment and so can loft quite a bit more sail.

You're correct, the provisional PHRF I was assigned is the non-spin PHRF, as I don't have one. I do well on corrected time
Get that asymmetric big spinnaker and you will have fun catching a lot more boats in real time and downwind with medium/strong winds you will finish among cruiser-racers, providing you use the Code0 for upwind sailing on lighter winds.

The boat has a powerful hull and needs the right (big) sails to exploit the big hull form stability that you can get while reaching or sailing downwind.
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:37   #70
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

Hey mstrebe, Did you guys ever get the Beneteau 381 ??? Would love to talk to you about one for sale in Mandeville, LA. If interested please call me at 504-458-1013. Thanks and have a great day.
Smooth Sailing, Capt. Rick Delaune
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:38   #71
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Re: Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Hey mstrebe, Did you guys ever get the Beneteau 381 ??? Would love to talk to you about one for sale in Mandeville, LA. If interested please call me at 504-458-1013. Thanks and have a great day.
Smooth Sailing, Capt. Rick Delaune
Yes, we've had it for 10 months now. I'll call you shortly.

Matt
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Old 05-05-2015, 21:05   #72
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Beneteau 38...the wife loves it!

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Yes, we've had it for 10 months now. I'll call you shortly.



Matt

I think the "it" Cap'n Delaune refers to is an ancient precursor to the late model Oceanis 38 design. So given that he's trying to sell his boat, maybe that's a more relevant post in another part of CF than here.
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