Beneteau 38

[Stumble]

Matt keep in mind that the Saber was a racer/cruiser not a true cruising boat. A better modern comparison would probably be something like a Pogo 12.50 with a (WAG) phrf rating of 3.

[Jim Cate]

Matt, IIRC the Columbia Saber was a "cruisified" international 5.5 meter class racer. Seems very unlike either a Cal 40 or any modern boat. IE, narrow and fairly deep draft for it's length, short waterline length vs LOA.

Are we talking about the same design?

Jim

[RKsailsolo]

Thanks mstrebe. Learning a lot from reading your posts.

[johanhook]

Many thanks Mstrebe, for the invaluable insight from someone actually owning the Oceanis 38!
Your posts have really helped me evaluate the boat.

[homerobarros]

Thank you for the compliment.
Yes, docked in front of my house in Fort lauderdale. Hope to learn all the systems and take her on short trips to the Keys and Bahamas... @3000 rpm on the inter coastal, 7.2 knots. Still need to add Arch and Bimini, as the sun in FL is brutal.
Cheers
Homero

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm a bit confused here: folks are calling this the "stiffest boat" ever sailed on, and then talking about sailing at 30 degrees of heel.

A stiff boat, IMO does not sail on its ear like that. We owned a Yankee 30 years ago that sailed at similar heel angles, and that was the main reason we sold her. After one SF Hawaii SF cruise, we found that long passages in such a boat were devastatingly fatiguing.

Is this a semantic problem here, or are the posters not understanding what a stiff boat is like?

Jim

Jim, I was looking to this already old post, new to me since I have been mostly cruising and out of this forum and I believe I can help with that definition that in fact it seems not to be universal, I mean stiffness on a boat.

Some in the US call stiff a boat that has a big initial stability and by that count the Oceanis 38 is certainly very stiff due to a large hull form stability, but in Europe and also more technically in the US stiffness in a boat equals power and do not refer only to the initial stability but to the overall boat capability to carry sail (overall stability). A stiff boat is a boat that can carry a lot of sail and has the stability (power) to do that.

Have a look:

"Power can also be described in terms of righting moment, stiffness (ie Boat A is stiffer than Boat B) and it is a term that describes a yachts ability to carry sail. In terms of Boat A and Boat B described above, Boat A is more powerful, is stiffer, has a higher righting moment, than Boat B. Righting moment is measured as kgm, that is; as a lever arm, kilograms multiplied by metres (displacement multiplied by the value GZ)"

The relationship between displacement, power and performance in Open 60 design : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects

[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Matt, IIRC the Columbia Saber was a "cruisified" international 5.5 meter class racer. Seems very unlike either a Cal 40 or any modern boat. IE, narrow and fairly deep draft for it's length, short waterline length vs LOA.



Are we talking about the same design?



Jim

Same boat. I've never actually sailed a Cal 40, and was basing my comparison on the similar keel/rudder profile and PHRF. The Sabre was a very narrow boat, basically a 5.5 meter with a cabin. Fantastic sailboat.


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[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by Polux

Jim, I was looking to this already old post, new to me since I have been mostly cruising and out of this forum and I believe I can help with that definition that in fact it seems not to be universal, I mean stiffness on a boat.



Some in the US call stiff a boat that has a big initial stability and by that count the Oceanis 38 is certainly very stiff due to a large hull form stability, but in Europe and also more technically in the US stiffness in a boat equals power and do not refer only to the initial stability but to the overall boat capability to carry sail (overall stability). A stiff boat is a boat that can carry a lot of sail and has the stability (power) to do that.



Have a look:



"Power can also be described in terms of righting moment, stiffness (ie Boat A is stiffer than Boat B) and it is a term that describes a yachts ability to carry sail. In terms of Boat A and Boat B described above, Boat A is more powerful, is stiffer, has a higher righting moment, than Boat B. Righting moment is measured as kgm, that is; as a lever arm, kilograms multiplied by metres (displacement multiplied by the value GZ)"



The relationship between displacement, power and performance in Open 60 design : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects

I am using the term "stiff" perhaps incorrectly in that I mean "the opposite of tender". As this commenter indicates, I do mean "initial stability" rather than "overall sail carrying capability without significant heel" frankly I can't imagine how much keel a boat would have to have to meet that definition of stiffness--what is the point of resisting heel and lofting sail beyond the displacement hull speed of the boat?

The hard chines of the Oceanis 38 give it definite and discreet angles of heel:

None: which is what you get on all points of sail abaft 120 degrees. It's extremely flat on its stern downwind, which is why you must loft a chute for downwind pwerformance.

10 degrees: a rather soft heel where the windward side is just above the water and the transom turbulence is all on the leeward side, but very easy to deal with. This is all points abaft 90 degrees true and all winds 12 knots and below.

20 degrees: the boat really moves in discreet increments. When the wind picks up or you turn into it, it immediately switches heel angles. This is the angle directly on the chine, and it's where you really feel the acceleration due to lower wetted surface drag. It's the upwind heel angle in any fresh wind.

45 degrees: the boat suddenly goes on its ear in heavy winds if you don't reef. Fast yes, stable yes, scary yes, comfortable no. Easy to handle though: reef the headsail by half, then winch in the roller furling main until you're back to that comfortable 20 degree chine angle. It's literally formulaic: use the roller furling to reduce sail until the heel angle is comfortable and boat speed is back down to 7.5 knots. It's quite easy to deal with, and yes you can of course use the typical tricks of dumping wind by easing the mainsheet before you reef in an emergency. But with the furling main and headsail, there's no reason why you would have to sustain a heel beyond 20 degrees in any useful winds.

I've been able to directly reef without heading into irons in all winds I've met thus far (none gale force or higher) by simply reducing headsail and mainsail proportionally as winds increase, often easing the mainsheet first.

The boat is a joy in fresh winds.

Matt

Matt






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[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by homerobarros

Thank you for the compliment.

Yes, docked in front of my house in Fort lauderdale. Hope to learn all the systems and take her on short trips to the Keys and Bahamas... @3000 rpm on the inter coastal, 7.2 knots. Still need to add Arch and Bimini, as the sun in FL is brutal.

Cheers

Homero

Amen to that (fierce S FL sun). At six foot height, that arch forces me to duck under it or suffer a flattened forehead. Was thinking that is a decision breaker but your mention of adding the arch makes me think it could be customized adding a few more inches. Ive seen a few attractive canvas configurations. Let us know what you finally decide. Did you get the shoal keel?

[robert sailor]

I recognize there are differing opinions on what a stiff boat is but I always saw a stiff boat as one that could carry full sail upwind in a good breeze. The old C&C 30 was a stiff boat. Racing against them years ago was frustrating when the wind got up to 18-20 apparent because we had to reef down and that boat could carry a full main and a 120 headsail and it was fast and powerful in those conditions.
Modern boats are lightly ballasted in comparison and use their form (wide beam) to get good initial stability but once it starts to blow they are usually overpowered very quickly. Many older boats would do well upwind at 25 degrees heel but the newer boats don't like anything much over 15 degrees as they slow down and build leeway.
I would not describe a typical beamy newer cruiser as stiff but for everyday sailing I like the newer designs.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by mstrebe

I am using the term "stiff" perhaps incorrectly in that I mean "the opposite of tender". As this commenter indicates, I do mean "initial stability" rather than "overall sail carrying capability without significant heel" frankly I can't imagine how much keel a boat would have to have to meet that definition of stiffness--what is the point of resisting heel and lofting sail beyond the displacement hull speed of the boat?

..
Matt

Matt, first of all congratulations on your new boat. Yes, even regarding the more technical use of the term stiffness, relating with the boat power (overall stability), your boat is relatively stiff (that's one of the reasons why it is fast). If we compare it with a Pogo 10.50 or 12.50, boats with the same type of hull (same designer) but much more powerful, then you would have more stiff boats.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I recognize there are differing opinions on what a stiff boat is but I always saw a stiff boat as one that could carry full sail upwind in a good breeze. ...

That depends on the amount of sail that the boat can carry. Take for example a Cal 40, that carries upwind 65m2 of sail and compare it with my boat (41ft) that carries upwind 107m2 of sail. Probably I would have to reef sooner than the Cal but my boat is much more powerful and stiff. Put the 107m2 of sail on the Cal 40 and it would have to reef even with light winds.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Modern boats are lightly ballasted in comparison and use their form (wide beam) to get good initial stability but once it starts to blow they are usually overpowered very quickly. Many older boats would do well upwind at 25 degrees heel but the newer boats don't like anything much over 15 degrees as they slow down and build leeway.
I would not describe a typical beamy newer cruiser as stiff but for everyday sailing I like the newer designs.

You cannot generalize like that. That's right that one of the ways you can tell apart a stiff boat from a tender one is upwind with lots of wind and waves, specially if they are the kind you can find on the med, very short period and very steep: they demand a lot of power to go upwind when they reach 1.5m or over.

This year sailing close upwind on the Corinth Gulf with 18/20k winds and with that kind of waves I could compare the performance of my boat with the one of a Moody 425. We where on the same anchorage and he went out first. I caught him easily and rapidly went way with a difference of about 1k in speed with about the same wind angle. I could make a better angle (and put more sail) but then the ride would be a lot more uncomfortable and sportive. My wife does not like that. The guy on the Moody, that probably thought like you, was so pissed off that took the front sail and put the engine on. It was a bit faster, but I was still faster without engine.

Stiffness is about that, as the NAs Owen and Clark explained on that article, it is about power and the amount of sailing stability (the one that is used for sailing) versus weight and wet area.

Regarding reefing sooner or later, it depends of the sail area you carry, but if a powerful boat can reef and is easy to reef, then reefed is still more stiff (and fast) then a boat that reefs with more wind, just because its sail area is smaller (and the sail area is smaller because the boat is less stiff in first place;-).

[RKsailsolo]

I sure do like posts from Polux. Rich knowledge sharing on a consistent basis.

[robert sailor]

I wouldn't debate for a moment that you have it over a Moody 425 as they are very cruisy, maybe that poor guy motor sailing against you was me, LOL. Your boat might indeed be a stiff boat but my experience sailing on newer beamy boats is that they are fact quite tender. The sail area to displacement ratio is often in the high teens but they are often lightly ballasted. Nothing wrong with that as you can always reef but often you can't add more sail so I prefer big sail areas myself but while a few of the modern boats probably do qualify as stiff, most don't in my opinion.

[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by RKsailsolo

At six foot height, that arch forces me to duck under it or suffer a flattened forehead. Was thinking that is a decision breaker but your mention of adding the arch makes me think it could be customized adding a few more inches.

The stock cabin forward arch is simply bolted to the cabin top with some fiberglass plates over the bolts. There's no reason why you wouldn't be able to increase the height with some extended bolts and spacers, but there's only about six inches of height for the mainsheet traveller blocks when the boom is hardened down. There are two LED lights in the arch, and you'd have to extend those wires as well.

I'm 6'5", and I've knocked my head a few times initially but I seem to have learned to duck.