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Old 02-04-2015, 06:10   #391
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Re: Beneteau 38

#009, Congratulations on your new boat. Let us know how the ordering, delivery, service process goes. FdM
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:29   #392
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
Separately, we have the Cruiser Version which comes with 2 fresh water tanks. Regarding these, we keep having an issue with the fresh water pump running dry despite the #2 fresh water tank gauge showing ¾ full [tank #1 seems to completely empty first]. We have both tank water valves open (at the pump under the port setee), so don’t know if we have a bad tank gauge, or if something is preventing the #2 tank’s water from getting to the pump. This will be checked out during the 50 hour service, but would be good to know if others have had this happen.
I had the exact same problem with my Jeanneau. Tanks would go dry quickly, even while still indicating full. I thought both level senders might have been broken, even thought that was highly improbable. After further investigation, I found that I was only using about 5 to 10 gallons before the pump went "dry". I also couldn't get enough continuous duty pressure from the pump to use the shower constantly. It turns out the filter on the suction side of the pump was clogged with plastic shavings from when the factory drilled the tanks. This caused the pump to not be able to lift the water once the tank level dropped some. After clearing the debris, everything works like normal. Lots of pressure and I can draw the tanks all the way to empty.
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:22   #393
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Re: Beneteau 38

Thx Garrett for the tip. I have not checked the pump filter but will do so and let you know if I find obstructions. FdM
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:50   #394
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Re: Beneteau 38

Lessons Learned
Since posting on this site, I’ve received a number of private emails from potential buyers from diverse locations who unfortunately have had or are experiencing many of the same challenges I had in my purchase process and have asked for lessons learned advice, so below is a list we wished that we had [and probably should have known] prior to our purchase, but hope others who are contemplating setting sail with a new factory ordered boat might find of value (we understand that Beneteau is supposed to be reaching out to us as a new owner to conduct a ‘Customer Satisfaction index’ interview, so below are summary notes for that process).


1. If you are purchasing a new boat, it helps greatly to buy one from a market leader like Beneteau because they are invested in maintaining their brand through quality and customer satisfaction.

2. Don’t hire the first boat salesperson/sales-manager you meet (at the boat show in our case). We’ve come to learn that many marine sales people are like bad car salespeople with good people skills but woefully inadequate knowledge of the product. Make sure that they have a) relevant certifications on their bios/resumes (not just sales or ‘industry’ awards), b) good communication skills, c) thorough knowledge of the overall process, d) are capable of being an advocate, e) a commitment to be responsive, f) and perhaps most importantly - deep knowledge of the boat itself (ours did not), including the available and/or desirable options available. As for us, we were unfortunately negligent here and this was, we think, our original sin (see #3 for what we would do if starting fresh).


3. Insist on having the dealership’s head of service involved upfront while you are configuring the boat [and also the owner of the company]. We’ve come to appreciate this person’s deep knowledge of Beneteau and would have preferred having their counsel up front before putting the order in. Given how and where we are sailing the boat, we would have added additional 3rd party items [that the head of service would have advised us on] in our original purchase if we had had his counsel prior to ordering.

4. Make sure the dealer goes over the entire detailed process and timing of the journey you are undertaking and have them do it up-front. They should be able to clearly tell you what to expect… from configuring everything standard and optional on the boat, to ordering, to financing, to obtaining insurance, to transport, to commissioning, to delivery, to post-delivery service 5-10 years and beyond…AND make sure you understand who is responsible for what and when. Although we repeatedly told the salesperson that this was our first purchase and needed guidance and understanding of the process, we were given almost no detailed explanation of the road that we were on and where it led to. We had constant surprises that should have been foreseen and communicated by the salesperson along the way that caused us to scramble.

5. For all 3rd party options ordered (sails, biminis, dodgers, fans, electronics, water filters, inverters, isolators, solar, etc.) make sure you see the actual quotes from the 3rd party vendors and have them attached to the Purchase Agreement so that you know exactly what is included in those quotes and their price. Also, talk the 3rd party vendors directly to ensure that you hear their recommendations directly on what to order as they are going to know a great deal more than the dealer’s salesperson. In our case, we came to find that the quotes in the Purchase Agreement were merely price guestimates made by the dealer’s salesperson. After the boat was ordered, several subsequent and surprising invoices were sent to us with higher prices. To the dealership owner’s credit, they absorbed these costs but they created unnecessary stress.

6. Beware of the Purchase Agreement that the salesperson sends you. We were sent an official looking Agreement that was so heavily tilted to the dealer that it would be fair to say that it reflected a ‘Heads we win, Tails you Loose’ philosophy. This caused undo stress and eroded trust. Next time we will insist [at a minimum] on using the Yacht Brokers Association Standard Professional Purchase and Sales Agreement. Separately, check and recheck all the terms of any/all agreements…Purchase, Loan, Insurance, etc…. as we found that we had to point out several material mistakes as the documents were passed back and forth. I’m not saying that these mistakes were intentional. We all make mistakes (as this posting shows, we made plenty of them ourselves), but they did happen so given the size of the transaction, it bears noting.

7. Don’t let high pressure sales tactics force your hand. The salesperson told us that prices were going up 15% if we didn’t sign immediately. This caused stress and eroded trust greatly throughout the entire subsequent process.

8. Never pay 100% up front…always hold a meaningful amount of dollars back until satisfactory delivery. This was a huge mistake for us and we should have known better. By doing this, we took on more stress than was necessary and just as importantly, trust was eroded. We will never do this again.

9. Be excruciatingly specific in your Purchase Agreement and attach addendums that lay everything out. Also, don’t trust promises made on the phone…put everything in emails. This was helpful to us, because we were repeatedly able to point to addendums and emails to refresh memories on commitments made…which to the dealership’s credit, were honored and trust restored. Note: To be fair, the Oceanis 38 is a fairly complex boat to order given its flexibility around configuration. Still, we ordered the top-of-the-line Cruiser Version, so we were surprised that the order form given was a single tab spreadsheet listing everything available for all models. I’ve been contacted by a number of potential Oceanis 35 and 38 buyers who have expressed frustration in dealing with the complexity of ordering these new boats - exacerbated both by the lack of some kind of logical configurator and the ignorance of dealer salespeople about what is standard and optional.

10. Be clear in the Purchase Agreement about who and where every item will be installed and by whom (OEM, dealer, or 3rd party). We had several surprises that ended out OK because of the high reputational standards of Beneteau, the owner of the dealership, and the quality of the dealer’s head of service, but caused undue stress.

11. If you are taking out a boat loan, get your credit score early (upgrade it if you can in advance) so that you know what it is - and get loan approval before committing to buy the boat. We financed a portion of our purchase and had one finance company credit-score-scammed us by saying our score was significantly lower than it actually was. Shop around. If you do, you will see a large variance in quality, knowledge, professionalism, rates, and terms. This same advice applies to insurance vendors/brokers.

12. Join online forums like Cruisers & Sailing Forum …. The contributors to these have lots of experiences that we were able to use to our great benefit. Be factual, courteous, and grateful. I believe that the boat OEMs monitor these sites and if things turn sideways are motivated to help as it is their reputation both online and on-the-line.

13. Really understand the charter business if you are contemplating it…and shop around. Although we ultimately passed on putting the boat into charter, we seriously considered it. In our diligence we found that the price of buying a new boat can vary greatly depending on the Charter company you purchase it through. In the Bay Area, the apples-to-apples price quote variances were as much as 30%. In fact, the largest Charter company in the area simply padded and uplifted the boat’s price such that they effectively took nearly all of the tax benefits for themselves. Also, if financing, make sure you get the correct loan type as charter mortgages carry significantly higher interest rates and restrictions…and the same goes for the insurance. If you let the charter company tell you otherwise (some tried with us) you risk your lender calling your loan prematurely or an insurance company not having to pay on a claim. Lastly, engage a CPA that can give you real/unfettered advice because Chartering, in combination with other fairly standard deductions, often triggers an IRS audit.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:12   #395
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Re: Beneteau 38

"Chartering, in combination with other fairly standard deductions, often triggers an IRS audit."
I've always been told (by a long time CPA and IRS agent) that as long as it is an arms-length chartering arrangement, with a full-time proferssional chartering business and management, there is no problem with the IRS. All they see is "business investment".
As opposed to running it all yourself with business and pleasure commingled, in which case they'll ask to examine your underwear and socks while they're at it.
Folks who diddle around with "owner's time" and reselling that yourself...that's again not "arm's length". But as long as your are simply the owner, and paying for everything else at rack rate, the IRS shouldn't be asking for anything more than a letter confirming that, at the most.
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Old 02-04-2015, 17:13   #396
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Re: Beneteau 38

Avalon on the hard in Port of Buffalo . Arrived at RCR Yachts today on time and perfect condition. Should splash in a few weeks. Weather improving and ice moving out. Timing should be good. Homero ... Thank you !
Kelly and Ed
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Old 02-04-2015, 17:28   #397
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Re: Beneteau 38

Aspenripper, Awesome....she's beautiful....congratulations. FdM
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Old 02-04-2015, 17:43   #398
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Re: Beneteau 38

Thank you !
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Old 02-04-2015, 19:53   #399
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
FYI, Attached is the photo of the propeller zinc the diver swapped out.
FDM, how long was your boat in the water? Mine was 6 months and today I hauled it up to change the oil on the sail drive and paint the keel where the dealer have "forgot" to paint where the wooden blocks were supporting it on the hard...
Attached is the picture of my anode. I think you must have heavy stray current in your marina.
Cheers
Homero
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:00   #400
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspenripper View Post
Avalon on the hard in Port of Buffalo . Arrived at RCR Yachts today on time and perfect condition. Should splash in a few weeks. Weather improving and ice moving out. Timing should be good. Homero ... Thank you !
Kelly and Ed
Dear kelly and Ed, Congratulations. Now you can go everyday to the yard and dream on the dry... soon no more dreams, just realizations... Monica and I wish you and your family great moments with Avalon.
Cheers
Homero
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:16   #401
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
Lessons Learned
Since posting on this site, I’ve received a number of private emails from potential buyers from diverse locations who unfortunately have had or are experiencing many of the same challenges I had in my purchase process and have asked for lessons learned advice, so below is a list we wished that we had [and probably should have known] prior to our purchase, but hope others who are contemplating setting sail with a new factory ordered boat might find of value (we understand that Beneteau is supposed to be reaching out to us as a new owner to conduct a ‘Customer Satisfaction index’ interview, so below are summary notes for that process).


1. If you are purchasing a new boat, it helps greatly to buy one from a market leader like Beneteau because they are invested in maintaining their brand through quality and customer satisfaction.

2. Don’t hire the first boat salesperson/sales-manager you meet (at the boat show in our case). We’ve come to learn that many marine sales people are like bad car salespeople with good people skills but woefully inadequate knowledge of the product. Make sure that they have a) relevant certifications on their bios/resumes (not just sales or ‘industry’ awards), b) good communication skills, c) thorough knowledge of the overall process, d) are capable of being an advocate, e) a commitment to be responsive, f) and perhaps most importantly - deep knowledge of the boat itself (ours did not), including the available and/or desirable options available. As for us, we were unfortunately negligent here and this was, we think, our original sin (see #3 for what we would do if starting fresh).


3. Insist on having the dealership’s head of service involved upfront while you are configuring the boat [and also the owner of the company]. We’ve come to appreciate this person’s deep knowledge of Beneteau and would have preferred having their counsel up front before putting the order in. Given how and where we are sailing the boat, we would have added additional 3rd party items [that the head of service would have advised us on] in our original purchase if we had had his counsel prior to ordering.

4. Make sure the dealer goes over the entire detailed process and timing of the journey you are undertaking and have them do it up-front. They should be able to clearly tell you what to expect… from configuring everything standard and optional on the boat, to ordering, to financing, to obtaining insurance, to transport, to commissioning, to delivery, to post-delivery service 5-10 years and beyond…AND make sure you understand who is responsible for what and when. Although we repeatedly told the salesperson that this was our first purchase and needed guidance and understanding of the process, we were given almost no detailed explanation of the road that we were on and where it led to. We had constant surprises that should have been foreseen and communicated by the salesperson along the way that caused us to scramble.

5. For all 3rd party options ordered (sails, biminis, dodgers, fans, electronics, water filters, inverters, isolators, solar, etc.) make sure you see the actual quotes from the 3rd party vendors and have them attached to the Purchase Agreement so that you know exactly what is included in those quotes and their price. Also, talk the 3rd party vendors directly to ensure that you hear their recommendations directly on what to order as they are going to know a great deal more than the dealer’s salesperson. In our case, we came to find that the quotes in the Purchase Agreement were merely price guestimates made by the dealer’s salesperson. After the boat was ordered, several subsequent and surprising invoices were sent to us with higher prices. To the dealership owner’s credit, they absorbed these costs but they created unnecessary stress.

6. Beware of the Purchase Agreement that the salesperson sends you. We were sent an official looking Agreement that was so heavily tilted to the dealer that it would be fair to say that it reflected a ‘Heads we win, Tails you Loose’ philosophy. This caused undo stress and eroded trust. Next time we will insist [at a minimum] on using the Yacht Brokers Association Standard Professional Purchase and Sales Agreement. Separately, check and recheck all the terms of any/all agreements…Purchase, Loan, Insurance, etc…. as we found that we had to point out several material mistakes as the documents were passed back and forth. I’m not saying that these mistakes were intentional. We all make mistakes (as this posting shows, we made plenty of them ourselves), but they did happen so given the size of the transaction, it bears noting.

7. Don’t let high pressure sales tactics force your hand. The salesperson told us that prices were going up 15% if we didn’t sign immediately. This caused stress and eroded trust greatly throughout the entire subsequent process.

8. Never pay 100% up front…always hold a meaningful amount of dollars back until satisfactory delivery. This was a huge mistake for us and we should have known better. By doing this, we took on more stress than was necessary and just as importantly, trust was eroded. We will never do this again.

9. Be excruciatingly specific in your Purchase Agreement and attach addendums that lay everything out. Also, don’t trust promises made on the phone…put everything in emails. This was helpful to us, because we were repeatedly able to point to addendums and emails to refresh memories on commitments made…which to the dealership’s credit, were honored and trust restored. Note: To be fair, the Oceanis 38 is a fairly complex boat to order given its flexibility around configuration. Still, we ordered the top-of-the-line Cruiser Version, so we were surprised that the order form given was a single tab spreadsheet listing everything available for all models. I’ve been contacted by a number of potential Oceanis 35 and 38 buyers who have expressed frustration in dealing with the complexity of ordering these new boats - exacerbated both by the lack of some kind of logical configurator and the ignorance of dealer salespeople about what is standard and optional.

10. Be clear in the Purchase Agreement about who and where every item will be installed and by whom (OEM, dealer, or 3rd party). We had several surprises that ended out OK because of the high reputational standards of Beneteau, the owner of the dealership, and the quality of the dealer’s head of service, but caused undue stress.

11. If you are taking out a boat loan, get your credit score early (upgrade it if you can in advance) so that you know what it is - and get loan approval before committing to buy the boat. We financed a portion of our purchase and had one finance company credit-score-scammed us by saying our score was significantly lower than it actually was. Shop around. If you do, you will see a large variance in quality, knowledge, professionalism, rates, and terms. This same advice applies to insurance vendors/brokers.

12. Join online forums like Cruisers & Sailing Forum …. The contributors to these have lots of experiences that we were able to use to our great benefit. Be factual, courteous, and grateful. I believe that the boat OEMs monitor these sites and if things turn sideways are motivated to help as it is their reputation both online and on-the-line.

13. Really understand the charter business if you are contemplating it…and shop around. Although we ultimately passed on putting the boat into charter, we seriously considered it. In our diligence we found that the price of buying a new boat can vary greatly depending on the Charter company you purchase it through. In the Bay Area, the apples-to-apples price quote variances were as much as 30%. In fact, the largest Charter company in the area simply padded and uplifted the boat’s price such that they effectively took nearly all of the tax benefits for themselves. Also, if financing, make sure you get the correct loan type as charter mortgages carry significantly higher interest rates and restrictions…and the same goes for the insurance. If you let the charter company tell you otherwise (some tried with us) you risk your lender calling your loan prematurely or an insurance company not having to pay on a claim. Lastly, engage a CPA that can give you real/unfettered advice because Chartering, in combination with other fairly standard deductions, often triggers an IRS audit.
FDM, I am sorry about the bitter taste the purchasing experience left, but thank you for the detailed report that certainly will help us all.
In my case I picked an excelent broker, 3 years ago, who not only sells boats, but is also a naval architect, and used to race sailboats professionally. In these 3 years, he really understood my goals, my budget and was never pushy.
Many times he convinced me NOT to buy certain equipments or even certain boats more expensive than the Oceanis 38, where he would make more commission... His referral for Insurance agent and finance dealer were not only cheaper, but extremely professional. I highly recommend Sean Brown from Miami.
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:24   #402
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspenripper View Post
Avalon on the hard in Port of Buffalo . Arrived at RCR Yachts today on time and perfect condition. Should splash in a few weeks. Weather improving and ice moving out. Timing should be good. Homero ... Thank you !
Kelly and Ed
Ed, make sure you inspect the bottom of the keel before they splash it, as the dealership (not the broker) "forgot" to paint where the keel was sitting on the wooden blocks. Look what happened...
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:35   #403
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Re: Beneteau 38

My boat was in the water for 8 weeks...although my marina is very 'hot' and has lots of yachts and even some superyachts (including Al Capone's' 1920's refurbished all metal luxo-behemoth). Interestingly, several large motor yachts have absent owners who we never see and the boats don't look as though anyone ever visits them. In fact, just this past week I informed the marina that one such 58' yacht had a veritable forest of greenery growing from its bottom and was listing to the side. All these boats are plugged into the marina which is why we think our anodes are deteriorating rapidly even though we are not plugged into shore power. My recommended service interval for the zincs is 2 months. FdM
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:40   #404
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
My boat was in the water for 8 weeks...although my marina is very 'hot' and has lots of yachts and even some superyachts (including Al Capone's' 1920's refurbished all metal luxo-behemoth). Interestingly, several large motor yachts have absent owners who we never see and the boats don't look as though anyone ever visits them. In fact, just this past week I informed the marina that one such 58' yacht had a veritable forest of greenery growing from its bottom and was listing to the side. All these boats are plugged into the marina which is why we think our anodes are deteriorating rapidly even though we are not plugged into shore power. My recommended service interval for the zincs is 2 months. FdM
Wow, FDM, don't dive there.. you will be electrocuted...
The picture show my anode with 6 months in the water and the contractors at the yard said it will last another year. Granted, I am not in a marina. My boat is docked being my house. I am not supposed to haul for another 6 months, but I will keep an eye every time I dive.
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Old 02-04-2015, 20:48   #405
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Re: Beneteau 38

Sail drive oil change.
Yesterday I hauled up to change the oil of the sail drive. Although Yanmar on page 48 of their manual says it should be done the first change with 50 hours, I could not do it before. It has today 101 hours and it is very easy (when the boat is on the hard) Unscrew this plug, let the oil drain and refill it with 2.3 liters of Gear Lube. In and out, 24 hours on the hard, $520 in Fort Lauderdale.
Cheers
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