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Old 07-12-2014, 15:40   #241
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
100% payment upfront coupled with "stopped production on all boats" is thinly veiled code for "serious cash flow problem".

It's also possible given the discrepancies between what you ordered and what you got that someone bailed on an order substantially similar to yours and they elected to simply ship that boat and have the dealer make the changes.
You hit the nail, thats exactly what im thinking...
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Old 07-12-2014, 15:42   #242
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Re: Beneteau 38

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;1695011]
Quote:
Finot/Conq and Beneteau are to be congratulated to give to sailors the kind of boats they want.[/QUOTE

Perhaps the most perceptive typo that I have ever seen!

Jim
Thanks It is corrected. Very nice boats, just look at Fluer de Mer boat's hull:
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Old 07-12-2014, 16:18   #243
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Re: Beneteau 38

[QUOTE=Polux;1695018]
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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Thanks It is corrected. Very nice boats, just look at Fluer de Mer boat's hull:
Say Pollux, I'm curious: do you think that the chine has any practical effect on the hull hydrodynamics? I find it hard to understand its function, other than as a styling statement. Folks talk about "getting down on the chine and becoming stiffer" and things like that, but I don't see how that works in the real world. If anything, it reduces the volume of hull submerged per degree of heel rather than increasing it compared to a smoother shape of heeled waterlines.

I note that the very wide race boats don't have such features...

Jim
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Old 07-12-2014, 16:38   #244
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Yes and it seems clear what is the problem: they have more commands then the ones they can provide

I hope everything turns all right with time and that Beneteau America will be able to re-compensate all those clients. They would be very stupid if they would act any other way because in what regards the 35 and 38 this is just the begging if they don't screw up. Finot/Conq and Beneteau are to be congratulated to give to sailors the kind of boats they want.
You missed the last part of my post:

Reputations are so easily ruined, and take forever to regain, if that is at all possible. Please keep us informed as things progress. It sounds like those that are doing the commissioning are trying to right as many wrongs as they can. I wonder what this production manufacturer will do to help this along?
Also, I assume you meant "orders" when you said "commands"? Things sometimes get lost in translation; I make similar mistakes all the time.
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Old 07-12-2014, 16:59   #245
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Re: Beneteau 38

Out of interest sake, only 18% of Beneteau sales are in North America. It is not clear if that is by unit production or sales. One has to assume sales.



As far as the comment about financial viability, although I concur requiring 100% deposit is a questionable practice, if one looks at the Beneteau S.A. financials, they actually look not bad. They made a profit this year as compared to the prior one, their free cashflow is good, and the analysts all call it to 'out perform'.

They appear to be making more in-roads to the NA market, buying RecBoats which builds Four Winns, Glastron, Wellcraft and Scarab brands.

If anyone wants to take a look at their financials and form their own opinion, here is the link:

Beneteau SA (CHBE.PA) Quote| Reuters.com
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Old 07-12-2014, 17:07   #246
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Re: Beneteau 38

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;1695037]
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Originally Posted by Polux View Post

Say Pollux, I'm curious: do you think that the chine has any practical effect on the hull hydrodynamics? I find it hard to understand its function, other than as a styling statement. Folks talk about "getting down on the chine and becoming stiffer" and things like that, but I don't see how that works in the real world. If anything, it reduces the volume of hull submerged per degree of heel rather than increasing it compared to a smoother shape of heeled waterlines.

I note that the very wide race boats don't have such features...

Jim
Yes, that pretty much resumes the effect of a chine of that type: "getting down on the chine and becoming stiffer". When the boat heels till that chine, it will be necessary a much bigger force to sail over it, meaning to heel more than that, compared with what would happen if it was not there and the hull was rounded.

In practical terms helps to maintain the boat upwind on the most favorable heel angle (according to boat design), the one that is determined by that chine. Downwind makes the sailing much easier diminishing the roll and allowing an easy control of the boat. It makes the job of an autopilot a lot easier.

Regarding racing boats all solo racers use them by the reasons I gave: When a boat is solo sailed it can be sailed faster if it is easier to handle.

Regarding max performance on crewed racing boats most of them don't use them (I mean chines of this type). A rounded well designed hull allows bigger heeling and helps to maximize the effect of the ballast and the weight of the crew on the rail. Downwind the boat is at fast but much more dificult to sail, needing a dynamic delicate balance of sails and crew weight. The exception are boats designed to be crewed in extreme conditions, day and night extensively where the easiness of control can have a speed advantage over a needed all time downwind control. That's the case of the VOR:

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Old 07-12-2014, 17:17   #247
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Re: Beneteau 38

We have to be careful before reaching conclusions in this instance. On another site where the OP also posted, Beneteau has stated that there are no problems in their production, no shortage of materials or delays in production.

This case is unusual in that the OP was required to pay 100% of the price before the boat was delivered to the dealer. I have, over the years, bought three new boats ( including one from Beneteau USA) and have never been required to pay 100% until I took delivery of the boat after commissioning Also the dealer claimed that Beneteau caused delays in the delivery. The OP has not identified the dealer but this is highly unusual.

The OP states that the dealer says the delays were due to Beneteau not having any teak. Beneteau does not use teak in their boats.

I do not believe we have all the facts. All I can say is that what has transpired here is awful fishy. The boat is clearly unfinished. Many dealers install equipment after receiving the boat from Beneteau. This is how they keep their commissioning crews busy and also adds to the profit to the dealer.
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Old 07-12-2014, 17:59   #248
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
We have to be careful before reaching conclusions in this instance. On another site where the OP also posted, Beneteau has stated that there are no problems in their production, no shortage of materials or delays in production.

This case is unusual in that the OP was required to pay 100% of the price before the boat was delivered to the dealer. I have, over the years, bought three new boats ( including one from Beneteau USA) and have never been required to pay 100% until I took delivery of the boat after commissioning Also the dealer claimed that Beneteau caused delays in the delivery. The OP has not identified the dealer but this is highly unusual.

The OP states that the dealer says the delays were due to Beneteau not having any teak. Beneteau does not use teak in their boats.

I do not believe we have all the facts. All I can say is that what has transpired here is awful fishy. The boat is clearly unfinished. Many dealers install equipment after receiving the boat from Beneteau. This is how they keep their commissioning crews busy and also adds to the profit to the dealer.


If they dont use teak, what kind of Wood they use instead? just asking, because there is lots of Wood in the deck in the Oceanis 48 for example, just curious...
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Old 07-12-2014, 18:35   #249
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
If they dont use teak, what kind of Wood they use instead? just asking, because there is lots of Wood in the deck in the Oceanis 48 for example, just curious...
I understand it's Iroko and Duka.
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Old 07-12-2014, 18:44   #250
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Yes, that pretty much resumes the effect of a chine of that type: "getting down on the chine and becoming stiffer". When the boat heels till that chine, it will be necessary a much bigger force to sail over it, meaning to heel more than that, compared with what would happen if it was not there and the hull was rounded.
Yes, I know that this is a common statement. My question really is "why does the chine have that effect"? IF the chine was not there, and the hull continued its curve upward, why would that be less stiff? And while I'm asking these questions, why does the chine create greater yaw resistance?

Maybe this is too much thread drift, and this line of discussion should be in another thread...

Yep, I'll start one!

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Old 10-12-2014, 05:26   #251
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Beneteau 38

231 posts later, and this thread continues. With a great spinoff discussion on chines (thanks Jim Cate!), there appears to be lots of interest in the Oceanis 38 and its design.

Along with a few others, this boat remains on my short list for purchase 18 months from today. I have been distracted by the intro of the Oceanis 35 which gives us even more to consider. The 35 offers lower cost--outright and maintenance--shorter draft in keel options including swing, the same wide open design interior and cockpit. But at six feet, I am disappointed in finding the ends of it are cramped as the front berth is shortened and the cockpit appears not as long.
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Old 10-12-2014, 10:26   #252
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Re: Beneteau 38

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231 posts later, and this thread continues. With a great spinoff discussion on chines (thanks Jim Cate!), there appears to be lots of interest in the Oceanis 38 and its design.

Along with a few others, this boat remains on my short list for purchase 18 months from today. I have been distracted by the intro of the Oceanis 35 which gives us even more to consider. The 35 offers lower cost--outright and maintenance--shorter draft in keel options including swing, the same wide open design interior and cockpit. But at six feet, I am disappointed in finding the ends of it are cramped as the front berth is shortened and the cockpit appears not as long.
I'm extremely happy with the 38 (especially the phenomenal performance), although I was trepidatious when the 35 came out thinking I may have moved too fast and could have considered the 35 if I hadn't already been in the process with the 38.

But then the dealer got their model and I had a look and I'm glad I didn't wait. It's a fine boat, but it's only 32' long (not sure why they call it a 35), forward berth is much too small for me, there's also no space at the foot of the berth to the removable bulkhead, and most importantly, the boat is nearly the same price as the 38'. For a family cruiser, it's good to reduce unnecessary LOA because slip fees are forever. So it's just a matter of whether that space is needed for you.

I'm 6'5", and my wife, 14 yo son and 12 yo daughter are all 6' tall, so for us the 38' is the right choice. Normal size folks should definitely consider the 35', because other than the cramped forward berth and narrower beam, it feels essentially the same as the 38'.

I will say I'm a bit mystified as to the utility of a swing keel when the boat does not have kick-up rudders...

Matt

(Luna Sea, Oceanis 38' Hull #3)
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Old 10-12-2014, 10:38   #253
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
We have to be careful before reaching conclusions in this instance. On another site where the OP also posted, Beneteau has stated that there are no problems in their production, no shortage of materials or delays in production.

This case is unusual in that the OP was required to pay 100% of the price before the boat was delivered to the dealer. I have, over the years, bought three new boats ( including one from Beneteau USA) and have never been required to pay 100% until I took delivery of the boat after commissioning Also the dealer claimed that Beneteau caused delays in the delivery. The OP has not identified the dealer but this is highly unusual.

The OP states that the dealer says the delays were due to Beneteau not having any teak. Beneteau does not use teak in their boats.

I do not believe we have all the facts. All I can say is that what has transpired here is awful fishy. The boat is clearly unfinished. Many dealers install equipment after receiving the boat from Beneteau. This is how they keep their commissioning crews busy and also adds to the profit to the dealer.
I checked with our dealer here in San Diego, and they've received numerous new boats in the past two months all completely fitted out correctly from Beneteau with no problems regarding wood decking, hardware fitment, or anything else. Sailboats and powerboats. They said they've not been notified of any sort of supply chain issues, and they said there's certainly no factory requirement to post 100% down, although according to them, its the dealer that carries the financing, not the manufacturer. In other-words, the dealer purchases the boat outright prior to shipment from the factory using their own line of credit. They then have reciprocal incentives from the factory and get paid for their use of demo boats at brand events, etc. But the dealers carry the financing. This way Beneteau can post sales upon order for their financial statements, they never get screwed by a dealer going out of business (which happens all the time in this business), and the dealers are motivated to move new boats that are tying up capital over consigned used boats that have lower carrying costs.

The dealers are also required to purchase a number of demo boats to have available, and this can be quite a burden on the dealership, as they pay for those boats and if they don't sell it's capital costs to them. The dealerships have discretion about which boats they want to buy, but they have to have one of specific classes available. Of course these are always financed "Interest only" so the monthly outlay for the dealership is as low as possible, but it's still an ongoing cost and ties up capital availability.

My boat was just such a "demo boat" which is why I was able to get it so early.

If the dealer gets stiffed by a purchaser, they have the down money and the boat, which they simply sell to someone else.

This smacks of dealer shenanigans, such as a demo boat having been ordered bare-bones to save money and then being sold to our forum member while it was being built. My suspicion is the dealer has done whatever non-standard fitment has occurred before the buyer saw it.

According to my dealer, the financial problems may be on the dealer side, not the manufacturer side.
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Old 10-12-2014, 20:16   #254
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Re: Beneteau 38

Thanks Matt for sharing your first hand experience. Reading that is just as interesting as Jim Cate's thread on chines. Rare expertise delivered on the importance of value and design.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:38   #255
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
...
I will say I'm a bit mystified as to the utility of a swing keel when the boat does not have kick-up rudders...

Matt

(Luna Sea, Oceanis 38' Hull #3)
A swing keel is not meant to beach the boat. It allows you to have about the same performance of a deep draft and enter ports with 1.4m of water. It allows you also a much bigger possibility to have a place on a full marina, since there is many times not occupied places for boats with a small draft.

In what regards anchoring it allows you to find places on full anchorages, places that others cannot take due to draft and when you are escaping from bad weather and high winds on an anchorage the very low draft the swing keel offers allows you to be very near the coast were the wind and sea is less strong and the protection much bigger.
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