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Old 15-02-2019, 10:01   #1
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Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

Hi! We all heard about financial problems of Bavaria Yachtbau in the past year. I am happy to know that things are better now and hopefully Bavaria will be here for many more years.

I am looking to buy a Bavaria which was manufactured during that period of financial problems of the company and I have some concerns that quality of manufacturing during these harsh days might have been compromised. My worst concern is that there might be some issues with the manufacturing process of hull and deck, like poor materials used or not enough resin used (for example) or anything else.

I would appreciate if someone have any information on that subject or if anyone have boat manufactured in that time?
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Old 15-02-2019, 14:15   #2
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

I very much doubt that there would have been significant differences in the way the boats were built during that time. The hull/deck/interior is built on site and none of the employees changed. It's remotely possible that some suppliers played games and some of the ancillary items went through changes, but that happens to any production boat at any time anyway.

Many of Bavaria's problems stemmed from their move into much larger boats well over 50 feet, which they didn't have room for in their factory and so subbed out a lot of it to other places. That got a lot more expensive than they had planned for. I'd be careful if you were talking about one of the very large ones, but no more so than any other boat -- get a good survey if it's second-hand. Or are you buying it as new from a Bavaria dealer? In that case I'd probably not be worried at all, as the newly financed Bavaria is not going to want to risk not handling warranty claims properly.
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Old 15-02-2019, 14:24   #3
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamPlan View Post
Hi! We all heard about financial problems of Bavaria Yachtbau in the past year. I am happy to know that things are better now and hopefully Bavaria will be here for many more years.

I am looking to buy a Bavaria which was manufactured during that period of financial problems of the company and I have some concerns that quality of manufacturing during these harsh days might have been compromised. My worst concern is that there might be some issues with the manufacturing process of hull and deck, like poor materials used or not enough resin used (for example) or anything else.

I would appreciate if someone have any information on that subject or if anyone have boat manufactured in that time?
I was looking at the Bavaria Virtress 420 fly and was warned by a few people about electrical problems with Bavaria in general. Dont have specifics but I would do some research!
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Old 15-02-2019, 17:21   #4
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

I don't know about the motorboats. I do know that there are two significant electrical issues with my boat: all the connectors on the Volvo Penta wiring loom and all the bodges the previous owner added. The original wiring is of the very highest quality, so they do know how to do it right. I appreciate that doesn't mean they do it like that on every model. However, the swiftest look behind the electrical panel will show you most of what you'll ever need to know about the way the electrical system is put together.
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Old 16-02-2019, 10:25   #5
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

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Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
I very much doubt that there would have been significant differences in the way the boats were built during that time. The hull/deck/interior is built on site and none of the employees changed. It's remotely possible that some suppliers played games and some of the ancillary items went through changes, but that happens to any production boat at any time anyway.

Many of Bavaria's problems stemmed from their move into much larger boats well over 50 feet, which they didn't have room for in their factory and so subbed out a lot of it to other places. That got a lot more expensive than they had planned for. I'd be careful if you were talking about one of the very large ones, but no more so than any other boat -- get a good survey if it's second-hand. [B]Or are you buying it as new from a Bavaria dealer? In that case I'd probably not be worried at all, as the newly financed Bavaria is not going to want to risk not handling warranty claims properly.
[/B]

Contrary Opinion: Poor workmanship and warranty performance are exactly the issue and concern. As per my previous post on a Cruisers Forum thread: http://http://www.cruisersforum.com/...cy-200230.html

Allegedly shoddy workmanship by Bavaria lead to the regional exclusive dealer to go bankrupt because of the warrant liability provide by the dealer.

So the underlying question remains whether Bavaria's post bankruptcy production quality has improved from its apparent poor quality before bankruptcy [and as the OP has expressed, there is the added concern that attaining quality of production and parts may have been under worsenining pressure during the bankruptcy period perhaps due to added financial duress and / or turnover in personnel or adverse relationships with suppliers]

From previous thread post: "The USA exclusive dealer, Bavaria Yachts USA, LLLP, [BUSA] filed for bankruptcy on October 16, 2016 in the Georgia Northern Bankruptcy Court. Having been in litigation and disputes with Bavaria Yachts for several years. In summary, the USA dealer was allegedly provided a 2% discount intended to cover the cost of customer service, repair of defects and warranty work to the USA customers but that the cost of repair of the manufacturers defects was far greater than the manufacturer's discount leading to losses to the dealer and the dealers bankruptcy."

Reference cached article detailing the bankruptcy of the USA dealer which was required to pay for the warranty repairs. http://https://webcache.googleuserco...&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Over the course of five years, BUSA says, it invested more than $5 million to build a brand presence in the United States for Bavaria Yachtbau's products, build a national sales network, and open regional sales centers in Connecticut (2012), California (2013) and Florida (2014) plus its administrative office in Atlanta. U.S. sales of the $500,000 yachts grew from two in 2011 to three in 2012, nine in 2013, 10 in 2014, and 15 in 2015, according to court filings. Read more about BUSA and Bavaria Yachts here and here.

But as yacht sales continued to increase, "design flaws" began to surface with many Bavaria Yachtbau's boats being sold in the United States, leading to BUSA having to make costly repairs, BUSA claims. The problems included "significant leaks and near sinking on numerous occasions," the Atlanta company contends.

The Atlanta company says it continued to pay out of pocket to repair "defective boats."

"The number of owners demanding to return their boats, fed up with the persistent and dangerous defects, grew out of control," BUSA says in its court filing. "The financial effect to BUSA was devastating. BUSA begged Bavaria Yachtbau to provide technical and financial support. Bavaria Yachtbau responded with further empty promises to fix the problems. All the while, BUSA got deeper and deeper in the financial hole of fixing Bavaria Yachtbau's defective boats."

BUSA goes on to charge that "Customer-ordered boats that were delivered to BUSA in the summer of 2016 had numerous defects including major leaks that would have sunk the boat had they not been immediately detected..."

BUSA contends Bavaria Yachtbau then took steps "to force BUSA out of business" in order to form a new U.S. dealership network. BUSA says Bavaria Yachtbau "began actively soliciting numerous other dealers in the U.S. to take over BUSA's business, despite the existence of the exclusive dealership agreements."

BUSA is asking the court to declare that it is the sole owner of 10 boats in its possession and award it millions of dollars in damages from Bavaria Yachtbau."

Caveat Emptor.
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Old 16-02-2019, 10:48   #6
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

That's an interesting post, especially where it describes the alleged structure of the dealer/manufacturer relationship. I haven't seen an arrangement like that before.

Usually, any defects in manufacture would be repaired and charged back to the manufacturer. I sure wouldn't take on a dealership of any product whatsoever (boat or otherwise) where I was expected to fix anything and everything for a measly 2%. I'm wondering who ultimately owned BUSA and why that structure was used.

If the allegations and numbers are to be believed, BUSA was operating on a maximum total revenue before costs of $20k in 2011, $30k in 2012, rising to $150k in 2015 (assuming all boats sold were $500k each, which most models of Bavaria aren't). And yet they spent $5m building a "brand presence"? Why? That's not a business, regardless of warranty issues.

I'm guessing that we'll never hear the other side of the story as it wouldn't have been required in bankruptcy court and doesn't apply any more anyway.
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Old 16-02-2019, 10:58   #7
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
[/B][/SIZE]

Contrary Opinion: Poor workmanship and warranty performance are exactly the issue and concern. As per my previous post on a Cruisers Forum thread: http://http://www.cruisersforum.com/...cy-200230.html

Allegedly shoddy workmanship by Bavaria lead to the regional exclusive dealer to go bankrupt because of the warrant liability provide by the dealer.

So the underlying question remains whether Bavaria's post bankruptcy production quality has improved from its apparent poor quality before bankruptcy [and as the OP has expressed, there is the added concern that attaining quality of production and parts may have been under worsenining pressure during the bankruptcy period perhaps due to added financial duress and / or turnover in personnel or adverse relationships with suppliers]

From previous thread post: "The USA exclusive dealer, Bavaria Yachts USA, LLLP, [BUSA] filed for bankruptcy on October 16, 2016 in the Georgia Northern Bankruptcy Court. Having been in litigation and disputes with Bavaria Yachts for several years. In summary, the USA dealer was allegedly provided a 2% discount intended to cover the cost of customer service, repair of defects and warranty work to the USA customers but that the cost of repair of the manufacturers defects was far greater than the manufacturer's discount leading to losses to the dealer and the dealers bankruptcy."

Reference cached article detailing the bankruptcy of the USA dealer which was required to pay for the warranty repairs. http://https://webcache.googleuserco...&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Over the course of five years, BUSA says, it invested more than $5 million to build a brand presence in the United States for Bavaria Yachtbau's products, build a national sales network, and open regional sales centers in Connecticut (2012), California (2013) and Florida (2014) plus its administrative office in Atlanta. U.S. sales of the $500,000 yachts grew from two in 2011 to three in 2012, nine in 2013, 10 in 2014, and 15 in 2015, according to court filings. Read more about BUSA and Bavaria Yachts here and here.

But as yacht sales continued to increase, "design flaws" began to surface with many Bavaria Yachtbau's boats being sold in the United States, leading to BUSA having to make costly repairs, BUSA claims. The problems included "significant leaks and near sinking on numerous occasions," the Atlanta company contends.

The Atlanta company says it continued to pay out of pocket to repair "defective boats."

"The number of owners demanding to return their boats, fed up with the persistent and dangerous defects, grew out of control," BUSA says in its court filing. "The financial effect to BUSA was devastating. BUSA begged Bavaria Yachtbau to provide technical and financial support. Bavaria Yachtbau responded with further empty promises to fix the problems. All the while, BUSA got deeper and deeper in the financial hole of fixing Bavaria Yachtbau's defective boats."

BUSA goes on to charge that "Customer-ordered boats that were delivered to BUSA in the summer of 2016 had numerous defects including major leaks that would have sunk the boat had they not been immediately detected..."

BUSA contends Bavaria Yachtbau then took steps "to force BUSA out of business" in order to form a new U.S. dealership network. BUSA says Bavaria Yachtbau "began actively soliciting numerous other dealers in the U.S. to take over BUSA's business, despite the existence of the exclusive dealership agreements."

BUSA is asking the court to declare that it is the sole owner of 10 boats in its possession and award it millions of dollars in damages from Bavaria Yachtbau."

Caveat Emptor.
I don't know about this particular case but recently Bavaria changed many old dealerships all over the world, many in Europe some having worked with them for decades.

It remains if the negative comments have not to due with some kind of revenge due to Bavaria change of dealer on the US.
.................................................. .................................................. .......I say this because I have not heard nothing about continued problems with new Bavarias in Europe and I believe that the Bavarias sold in US are made in Europe...or am I wrong?

In Europe there were also lots of complaints regarding the changing of dealers but they never resourced do defamation...if that is the case with the US dealer.
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Old 16-02-2019, 13:32   #8
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

Reference https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/manuf...ain-lost-trust


Bavaria Yachts said it wants to “regain lost trust” after emerging from bankruptcy last month. The German powerboat and sailboat builder, with production facilities in Germany and France, went into voluntary bankruptcy last April. It was purchased in mid-September by CMP Capital Management-Partners, a Berlin-based equity fund specializing in distressed companies in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

“We intend to keep Bavaria’s promises and meet its delivery dates. Quality must also improve again,” said Ralph Kudla, the chief restructuring officer, in a statement.

Bavaria was once the third-largest sailboat importer into the United States, behind Beneteau and Jeanneau. Kudla said the company would cut the number of models it builds by more than half, from 26 to 10 or 12 models. It plans to make those changes during the next three years.

“This represents the greatest challenge, and it will certainly take us six months or more to take the initial decisions,” Kudla said.

The company said that all 800 jobs — 550 in Germany and 250 at the Bavaria Catamarans facility in France — have been “secured” by the purchase.

Bavaria told Trade Only Today that Bavaria Catamarans will return to its original name, Nautitech, for marketing purposes. “We believe that it is important for the two companies to be able to highlight their respective identities even more clearly in future,” Kudla said.

The German facility plans to move from shorter production hours that it had during the bankruptcy period to full-time hours in November. It also said it plans to hire more full-time employees as it sheds temporary workers.

Dr. Ralph Kudla looks ahead: “We want to regain lost trust. We intend to keep Bavaria’s promises and meet its delivery dates. Quality must also improve again. And we want to involve our dealers more closely in strategy and product development. A dealers’ advisory board will be introduced to this end. In this way, we will hear customer feedback, pick up on it and turn it into product improvements as quickly as possible.”
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Old 16-02-2019, 16:58   #9
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

The above sounds good when you say it really fast. I wonder if this game plan includes some retroactive action to help all those folks who have defective vessels, and who were not satisfied with warranty work in the past.

Trust does not regenerate only in the forward direction.

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Old 16-02-2019, 16:58   #10
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Re: Bavaria - quality concerns during financial problems?

Bavaria has indicated that they produced upwards of 4,000 boats per year, but during the 5 month period of their bankruptcy administration they only produced 220 boats. Obviously production was greatly reduced in volume, unclear as to implications regarding interim quality but certainly not the normal processes or personnel involved.
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