Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by SwissMocha

As a result Bavaria recalled all Match series 42 and 35 and reinforced their keel sections. The Match series were later discontinued.

Keels might not have been the only issue with the Match 42... Just posted this morning on another forum, is a thread from the owner of a 42 concerned about the failure of a headstay/furling link plate he'd heard about on a sister ship in charter service elsewhere...

Now, of course it's possible this boat might have been modified somewhere along the line by someone with little understanding of how standing rigging is properly done... But, if indeed this boat was shipped from the factory like this, without any sort of toggle at the base of that link plate to allow for the inevitable headstay sag, I'd say that's a bit more than just a head-scratcher...

:-)

[bobnlesley]

Hail to the arm chair sailor and all their crap as you're the ones that make this forum funny as hell.

I've got to agree with that!

We sail a very 'traditional' heavy displacement, long keeled yacht and from time to time make extended offshore passages; would I do that in a Hunter, Bavaria or similar? No, but that's a personal choice; when crossing an ocean, to paraphrase Lance Armstrong (is that allowed nowadays?) "it's not about the boat." Crews break, not boats and even when you get a mechanical failure, oftentimes that'll have come about because the crew have already broken or at least cracked and not been doing their part of the job.

I also believe that for 99.9% of sailors, a Ben/Jen/Bav-Hunter is a far better bet than something like ours; we liveaboard/sail fulltime and there are probably no more than half-a-dozen days in the year when I think we're in the better/superior boat; if you excluded the offshore passages, I doubt there'd be any.

The comments invariably revolve around 'What about when it's blowing a gale out at sea?' Well IMO, with a decent anchor or set of dock-lines,the Ben/Jen/Bav-Hunter will snug down just as well as ours does and the crew will have got it reversed more easily/quickly into a tighter and better sheltered spot in the marina than I could possibly manage too! Long-term/Livaboard Cruisers rarely poke their heads outside a secure harbour/anchorage when there are any 'Greens' showing up on Passageweather (we don't need to - we can go tomorrow or next week) and with modern weather forecasting and access/availability of same, you've got to be very unlucky, or careless to get a genuine battering - not the yacht-club bar fly stories where memory turns a F5 beat to windward into half a hurricane, I mean a 'real' battering! - unless you're on an extended (more than 48-72 hours) passage, with nowhere to bail-out. So as 99.9% of sailors never make one of those, why not sail on a spacious, modern yacht, with hull/keel shape and engine that allow you to manoeuvre easily in the 21st century's crowded harbours and marinas?

In our years cruising both the Mediterranean and Caribbean, I have undoubtedly seen more Ben/Jen/Bav-Hunters get 'broken' than I have of the heavier displacement, traditional yachts, but that's only logical as it's once again down to the crews not the boats:
We've often sat in a well sheltered anchorage whilst it blew a hooley for days or even weeks and during that time, only the occasional liveaboard boats moves in or out of the bay; we've got the time to wait out the weather. However, the Ben/Jen/Bav-Hunter Charterboats are crewed by people on much tighter time schedules, so they head out and 'give it a go'. Those boats are not ultimately as 'tough' as the older/heavier built vessels and whilst it's unfair to suggest (as we often hear) that they're not as good at sailing than the liveaboards - I know that most'll be a sight better than we are - they'll rarely have the experience/knowledge of the particular boat that they're sailing this week as well as we do; as a result, 'mistakes' are more likely to be made and they come back damaged - you can't blame the boat for the crew's errors.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Keels might not have been the only issue with the Match 42... Just posted this morning on another forum, is a thread from the owner of a 42 concerned about the failure of a headstay/furling link plate he'd heard about on a sister ship in charter service elsewhere...

Now, of course it's possible this boat might have been modified somewhere along the line by someone with little understanding of how standing rigging is properly done... But, if indeed this boat was shipped from the factory like this, without any sort of toggle at the base of that link plate to allow for the inevitable headstay sag, I'd say that's a bit more than just a head-scratcher...

:-)

Jon, have you ever made a positive contribution to the forum? You only seem to post on production boat bashing and boat sinking thread.

[George DuBose]

I have never sailed a Hunter, but I once saw a Bavaria at the Düsseldorf Boat Show and I was shocked at the poorly finished details...and on a boat that was at a boat show. Many Bavarias are designed for chartering with four staterooms and two heads, all jammed into a 40 foot hull. Bavaria hypes their automated construction methods, but that just makes me think that there are no human eyes controlling quality.

I sail an old Pearson and they certainly weren't finished to a very high level, but they were handmade.

Some manufacturers just use higher quality fittings, better cabinet latches don't add that much to the final price.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Jon, have you ever made a positive contribution to the forum? You only seem to post on production boat bashing and boat sinking thread.

Well, perhaps not, if you happen to believe that pointing out the difference between something done right, and the same thing done wrong, can never be of any benefit to anyone...

:-)

[neilpride]

That chainplate is wrong, doublé plated with the single plate in the midle , ... Lol.... My 2 cents is not the OEM chainplate...

[Suijin]

There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad she was horrid.

-Longfellow

That's a Hunter for you. Here in Annapolis there are zillions of Hunters. Some owners love theirs. Others, not so much. Have a friend who just had to drop the keel on his <10 yo boat with repairs costing over $8k. Not a happy guy.

[TanzerTom]

I think letsgetsailing3 gets it right. You guys know far more about sailing than I. It's why I seek advice from you on getting my retirement boat after being landlocked for the last 10 years. But after years in marketing research and analysis with a consumer packaged goods company, in Human Resources for a marketing firm, and in business for myself as a car dealer, I do know something about human behavior. Not as much as a bar tender in a sailor bar , but something.

In a BMW motorcycle club, the bashing of other brands was a major time killer, even though by most any standard, the other brands were often better at many aspects of motorcycle riding. Hanging out at a friend's Harley Davidson shop was a little different... what other brands? And hanging around docks, the comments on "floating condos" was common among the "blue water" liveaboards and racers. It's kind of a herd mentality and the need to belong... has nothing to do with the boats, bikes, cars, or whatever. It's about the people.

Marketers today have no earthy idea what any one consumer might like or will buy. However, with the demographic, psychographic, life style, etc. data now easily available, they know an incredible amount about a GROUP of people and can predict with amazing accuracy what their behavior will be in any given situation. Building a boat, car, or motorcycle or making a new breakfast cereal is no longer as much of a crap shoot as it was at one time. Most things are designed and built to meet a need, perceived or imaginary. There are few exceptions.

A simple but highly useful little saying my sales people proved true in selling cars was this: Men buy cars based on how they think the car will look in the driveway; women buy cars based on how they think they will look in the cars. It's not the boats. It's the people and their perceptions, irrational or not.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by TanzerTom

.....

A simple but highly useful little saying my sales people proved true in selling cars was this: Men buy cars based on how they think the car will look in the driveway; women buy cars based on how they think they will look in the cars. It's not the boats. It's the people and their perceptions, irrational or not.

I used to consult to franchised dealers... A saying I often heard was, "There's an ass for every seat and a seat for every ass".

I suspect that applies to sail boat owners also.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by avb3

There is no question that if momma ain't happy nobody's happy. That is a compromise that often needs to be made.

Where do you normally do your sailing? Currently I am in the Tampa area where I spend half the year rather than in that cold, cold weather that so many of my fellow Albertans are currently suffering through. I did the -30 thing this November, got stuck in my driveway and have done way too much snow shoveling over the years.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Yes it does get cold there but we didn't know any better when we were young and we sort of liked it but of course that changes, doesn't it, LOL. We have been sailing all over the place,many years in the South Pacific and North Pacific and recently the Med and now we are in the Caribbean. What about you? Sailing around the Tampa area must be a pleasure!

[cwyckham]

Well, I don't like modern Hunters, and my wife feels the same way. No, we're not rude enough to walk up to a Hunter owner and tell them we don't like their pride and joy, but we certainly would never buy one.

It isn't because they're cheaper than our boat (they're not, we have a 30 year old boat), and it isn't because we think they'll fall apart.

The main problem is that they look ugly as hell. They have this enormous fluffy marshmallow look to them due to the very large volume required for the living compartment. They're wide and they have massive freeboard.

A secondary problem is the B&K rig. It's not that I think it'll fall over, it's that I like to be able to let my main out on a run.

I like to sail and I believe that modern Hunters are optimized for the dock and the anchor. There's nothing wrong with that since that's really important to a lot of people, it's just not our thing.

Note: I don't have anything against the older Hunters from the 80s before they got all bloated. It's not a brand thing as much as a styling and trade-off thing.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Well, I don't like modern Hunters, and my wife feels the same way. No, we're not rude enough to walk up to a Hunter owner and tell them we don't like their pride and joy, but we certainly would never buy one.

It isn't because they're cheaper than our boat (they're not, we have a 30 year old boat), and it isn't because we think they'll fall apart.

The main problem is that they look ugly as hell. They have this enormous fluffy marshmallow look to them due to the very large volume required for the living compartment. They're wide and they have massive freeboard.

A secondary problem is the B&K rig. It's not that I think it'll fall over, it's that I like to be able to let my main out on a run.

I like to sail and I believe that modern Hunters are optimized for the dock and the anchor. There's nothing wrong with that since that's really important to a lot of people, it's just not our thing.

Note: I don't have anything against the older Hunters from the 80s before they got all bloated. It's not a brand thing as much as a styling and trade-off thing.

So even when we do our best not to bash we still end up with bashers. I think we all know that some boats are better suited to one mission or another but just for the hell of it why can't we seem to rise above it and discuss the history of why these two brands got tarnished on the internet. Discovering the history is a little harder than bashing. Many of you have made a good effort and I certainly appreciate that but can't we do our best to stick to the history of why it is happening??

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by colemj

This has been our experience also. We have had people see our boat, come right up to us and start angrily telling us how dangerous catamarans are, how they know many people who have flipped theirs, how they would never be caught on one - not even on a dock, etc. As I ignore them, or calmly thank them for their opinion, they get even angrier and louder.

Mind-blowing, actually - but these people do exist in larger numbers and wider distributions than I would ever had imagined.

Mark

I met a guy at the boatyard who had a friend whose cousin knew a guy who sailed a 40' catamaran with his family. One day, in 20 knots of breeze, they inadvertently flipped the thing...right into an active volcano. It was horrible.

Goes to show what can happen on those things if you're not reefed way down.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Yes it does get cold there but we didn't know any better when we were young and we sort of liked it but of course that changes, doesn't it, LOL.

I used to love winter, and miss cross country skiing, which I did a lot with my kids and grandkids. I got a bit in before I left mid December.

About 4-5 years ago there was a particular bad series of snow falls. My house was on a corner lot, with two driveways and 165 feet of sidewalk fronting it. When I had to shovel the third time in one day, that was the catalyst to me saying enough is enough. I started looking around for places which had good weather, good sailing infrastructure and reasonable sailing variety, and chose the Tampa region. It helped that property was, and still is actually, cheap as heck here compared to Alberta. I won't tell you what I paid for my condo, but suffice it to say virtually any decent sailboat is much more.

We have been sailing all over the place,many years in the South Pacific and North Pacific and recently the Med and now we are in the Caribbean. What about you? Sailing around the Tampa area must be a pleasure!

The one thing one has to get used to is the skinny water here. I refer it as "touch and go" keel sailing... yes, I have hit bottom a few times, and tow insurance is a must. So far I have been lucky and have always managed to get myself off the bottom, and that it is soft.

I can understand you sailing the south Pacific, but the north?? Up the west coast to Alaska, or along the Aleutians also? Where in the Caribbean are you now?

[Sondor]

Perhaps everyone who has a strong opinion one way or the other could read the Orwell line (paraphrased obviously) All boats are equal. Some boats are more equal than others.

Now perform a moment of introspection regarding the above statement and we have a fine Rorschach test!