Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[robert sailor]

Following the threads that seem to bring so much passion out of people are the "perceived" quality standards of different boats.
Carsten tells us in Europe it is all about Bavaria bashing and Smack Daddy says Hunters are routinely bashed in America. Why is this?? Sure the odd manufacturer has built boats that have been less than wonderful but in most cases they dodge the bullet while the builders mentioned above don't seem to get a fair break. What has either of these builders done to deserve this type of reputation among the the sailing forums?? I know very little about Hunter's except they were always the most affordable boats out there but I do know that Bavaria really started to produce extremely affordable boats some years ago and started getting a large market share. Other builders followed the price war as Beneteau brought out the Cyclades series which was also very low in price. Is it simply that these manufacturers provided a product at an affordable price or is there more to it. Now here's the deal, "no bashing please", just fair concepts and comments as to why you think this...I'll not involve myself. Smack you might have some insights for American sailors and Polux I'll bet you have some thoughts about this as you have owned a Bavaria.

[44'cruisingcat]

The bashers probably hate the fact that other people can do what they do, but for far less money.

[smackdaddy]

Honestly, Robert, I don't know on the Hunter bashing thing. There seemed to be a spate of rudder problems years ago that got a good deal of traction and tarnished the brand (the composite stock I think). And there are other documented issues that apparently had to be addressed model-wide like on the Hunter Legend 45 (the bar across the salon ceiling to stiffen the boat). (All of this is just from my memory and stuff I've come across on the forums. I don't know any of this stuff for sure.)

Then there are things that Hunter has done that went against the "traditional" grain such as the B&R rig with its swept-back spreaders, the arch, etc. Of course, if you look at more modern boats, you see these features coming into play on those as well - so it couldn't have been as bad as those traditionalists made it out to be at the time.

Maybe it's just that Hunter innovates a lot and thereby becomes a target from the traditionalist crowd more than the other production brands. I don't know.

I own a 1989 Hunter 40 Legend. I did a hell of a lot of researching and looking to choose that particular boat - and wanted this exact year and model. And I'm happy with the choice. I love it and trust it. I really do. It's one of the best boats I've ever sailed - hands down. To me it's a great mix of "traditional bluewater boat" features, great performance characteristics, and super-comfy interior (centerline aft queen bed, etc.). This is the boat I wanted. As I sail it more, I'll keep reporting back on what I find...good and bad.

But to be clear, I'm not a blinded Hunterphite. In fact, if I were buying a new mono, I probably would get into something like the Jeanneau SO 50DS. I really like that boat as it has many of the things I like in my current Hunter. And it appeals to me more stylistically than the new Hunters.

But I do find it utterly ridiculous when Hunter is bashed brand-wide so much with so little evidence to back up the bashing. It's just become a silly forum sport more than anything else. That's why I hammer on guys doing it. I want to see the proof for their claims. Most of the time - it's not there...or they are completely misrepresenting it.

And this isn't at all good for prospective boat buyers looking for objective information.

So - this is an interesting thread. I hope we can figure this out. That would be a good thing.

For me, I like pretty much all boats. And I don't feel a need to bash any brand.

[neilpride]

Hunter got a bashing on fórums since Rudder and keel problems, Bavaria have in the record a nasty keel isue to, with the Match 42... Sincé when the problems start, i dont know the exact year but i sail in a old 33 Bavaria time ago and the quality is just super!!


Same happen with old beneteaus and jeaneaus, im in love with old F456 from Beneteau, owner let me take a look inside and outside, definetley a diference in quality , and those German frers lines are just really nice..


For me is more important the year V the Brand, Beneteau and Bavarias or Hunter have excellent boats in the market, you should check the year and the related isues...

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

..I'll not involve myself.

Ummm, Robert, yes you do.
So don't start on crap polmics when your boat might not be considered, by some, better that what you are slagging.

Lets live and let live and when yours is able to cruise again have some equanimity

Each person, justifiably, loves his boat. It might not be as expensive, or whatever, than others, but its his boat, treated with love, and care to his ability to do so.

Mark

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Ummm, Robert, yes you do.
So don't start on crap polmics when your boat might not be considered, by some, better that what you are slagging.

Lets live and let live and when yours is able to cruise again have some equanimity

Each person, justifiably, loves his boat. It might not be as expensive, or whatever, than others, but its his boat, treated with love, and care to his ability to do so.

Mark

You are way off base my friend, I am actually interested in why these boats get slagged. So far the responses have been enlightening and as long as posters keep to the subject it should stay that way. R

[colemj]

Robert, you need an avatar. I suggest a picture of Michael Douglas from the movie "Falling Down"…

Mark

[JPA Cate]

Yes, an avatar would be helpful, also type of boat and general location.

[Randyonr3]

Odd Thing, in all the years we've been cruising, racing, and just putzing around on boats, I've never heard someone in person put down another persons boat. So I figured, its all an internet thing and mostly from those that dont own a boat in the first place.
Hail to the arm chair sailor and all their crap as you're the ones that make this forum funny as hell.

[JPA Cate]

Yes, it is an internet thing, in part, people hide behind anonymity and put themselves up by putting others down, and "information" is so prolific and can be exchanged so fast.

I think there are other things involved, too. One of them that I never ran into before CF is the idea that the boats "should be" designed to a standard that would make them all, off the shelf ready to cruise. It seems as if the posters do not want themselves nor others to have to take responsibility for addressing weaknesses in new boats. I think it is an abdication of personal responsibility that permeates [at the least] US culture.

The Hunter rudders of old, last year's Beneteau keel problems, and what appears to some of us as shoddy construction practices, fuels the fires.

Ann

[letsgetsailing3]

Come now.

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

If people couldn't differentiate themselves through the products they own, luxury brands would go out of business. If they're on a watch forum, they gotta bash the Timex. How else can they justify the enormous sums they paid for their Tag Heuer or their Rolex? They can't admit that they paid more for their timepiece just to differentiate themselves from all those other dorks with watches. They're a discerning time-piece buyer, and can afford the very best.

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.

What else would the reason be? Otherwise, it really makes no sense for someone with (or who wants) one brand of boat to spend a lot of time bashing another boat brand.

[S/V Illusion]

While I don't disagree with the two prior causes mentioned:
1. Low self-esteem brought on in part by their alternative boat choice, and
2. The anonymity which allows saying things they otherwise wouldn't say,

i never see such comments on other boating sites, car sites motorcycle sites, etc...and when one does pop up there, it is short-lived and mostly ignored.

Guess some 'sailors' on this forum confine their activity to trying to sound knowledgeable. Might have something to do with #1.

As I've written before here, I can recall no such bashing of any boat brand while we were sitting in some remote anchorage in the S Pacific while everyone complained equally about breakdowns, maintenance, spare parts, yard monkeys, etc.. regardless of the boat builder.

It's unfortunate as it colors the integrity of everyone on this forum who tries to offer objective or constructive comment with the obvious and often uninformed opinions here.

Perhaps moderators on other forums have this figured out better.

[nhschneider]

While 'bashing' up the coast of Baja California in 2009, we were in radio contact with the Hunter Deliverance, who was making the same passage. I believe the boat was a 2004 vintage and I seem to remember that it was about 44'. During a rare calm period, while motoring, the stem piece on the Hunter failed, bringing down the mast, ripping up 4' feet of deck on the bow and tearing out all the lifelines and stanchions. No one was injured and Deliverance was able to make it into San Diego Bay without further incident (we arrived at the Customs dock within 5 minutes of each other).

Coincidently, both Deliverance and my boat were hauled out later at the same yard, Driscoll's on Shelter Island, a few weeks later and it was discovered that Deliverance also had major issues with the keel. The owner, whose name I've forgotten, told me that the Hunter customer service department claimed he must have hit something and would not honor the warranty claim. The owner swore he had hit nothing.

Granted, this is anecdotal information but it remains a fact, nonetheless. Based on what I have seen, I would not own a Hunter even for day sailing.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[sandy stone]

Well, that didn't take long...

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Odd Thing, in all the years we've been cruising, racing, and just putzing around on boats, I've never heard someone in person put down another persons boat. So I figured, its all an internet thing and mostly from those that dont own a boat in the first place.
Hail to the arm chair sailor and all their crap as you're the ones that make this forum funny as hell.

Try sailing a multihull. You get plenty of "experts" telling you you can't sail in blue water, can't sail to windward, (oh how I love passing those guys sailing higher and faster than them) your boat has an uncomfortable motion (so they've heard), is going to break up or capsize any second...

And yes there are people who'll say this to your face. They'll even get into their dinghy and come over to tell you how they wouldn't want to be on your boat "in a blow."