Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[neilpride]

Definitely Paulo,you live in a buble isolated from the rest of the world...

[nhschneider]

I'm surprised to find so many members of this forum are so sensitive to criticisms of boats, be they fact or fiction, even to the point of suggesting that the moderators shut down the thread.

Perhaps I miss the point of a forum in the first place but I had always assumed that it was place open to share knowledge, ideas, experiences and opinions of like-minded people, rudeness, bad grammar, misspellings or ignorance notwithstanding. I have been grateful to this forum on many occasions when someone had pointed out that a product or service that I was considering had drawbacks of which I wasn't aware. I would be disappointed if moderators shut down threads where someone offered criticism.

Earlier on this thread, I posted on an event where I personally witnessed where a major structural failure on a Hunter that could have resulted in a catastrophe. I then offered my opinion. Is that not what this forum is for?

I get worried when those bent on civility encroach on censorship.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by colemj

This has been our experience also. We have had people see our boat, come right up to us and start angrily telling us how dangerous catamarans are, how they know many people who have flipped theirs, how they would never be caught on one - not even on a dock, etc. As I ignore them, or calmly thank them for their opinion, they get even angrier and louder.

Mind-blowing, actually - but these people do exist in larger numbers and wider distributions than I would ever had imagined.

Mark

Quite a few here on CF that have managed to close down quite a few multihull threads.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

I'm surprised to find so many members of this forum are so sensitive to criticisms of boats, be they fact or fiction, even to the point of suggesting that the moderators shut down the thread.

Perhaps I miss the point of a forum in the first place but I had always assumed that it was place open to share knowledge, ideas, experiences and opinions of like-minded people, rudeness, bad grammar, misspellings or ignorance notwithstanding. I have been grateful to this forum on many occasions when someone had pointed out that a product or service that I was considering had drawbacks of which I wasn't aware. I would be disappointed if moderators shut down threads where someone offered criticism.

Earlier on this thread, I posted on an event where I personally witnessed where a major structural failure on a Hunter that could have resulted in a catastrophe. I then offered my opinion. Is that not what this forum is for?

I get worried when those bent on civility encroach on censorship.

Fair winds and calm seas.

Can you cite specifically where anyone suggested someone shut down this discussion? I may have missed that.

What we might agree on is that there are some who have a demonstrated tendency to make declarative statements as though it was factual when, in reality, it is no more than supposition or uninformed conjecture.

Both serve only to mislead for purposes only a qualified psychiatrist might discern and which seems to occur here on this forum more so than others.
When people make dubious statements, it reflects poorly on the forum as a whole. How to rectify that problem short of excluding some of the more infamous offenders is a dilemma.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The bashers probably hate the fact that other people can do what they do, but for far less money.

Or perhaps some people resent that other people can do the same thing they're doing in a more expensive way, and thus interpret any sort of criticism as bashing? It can work both ways.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Can you cite specifically where anyone suggested someone shut down this discussion? I may have missed that.

The OP:

Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing
OK if we can't stop the bashing we can just shut this down. Others have added some well thought out reasons why these brands get bashed and most of them make some sense. I have talked to several people over the years that lost their rigs and none of them were Hunters. Lets be fair about this because any of us can find crap to say about boat brands. There are other places you can post some bashing if you like but please lets keep this thread clean from bashing,

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Exile

Or perhaps some people resent that other people can do the same thing they're doing in a more expensive way, and thus interpret any sort of criticism as bashing? It can work both ways.

LOL! I don't think so.

[Finnsail]

Originally Posted by Polux

In Europe nobody bashes Bavarias that are looked as strong boats, just not as smart looking as French boats and even that seems to have changed with the new Vision series.

I met a European Bavaria owner at the Annapolis Show last fall. She owns a Bavaria that's in charter use. She only had positive things to say about the quality after years of charter use. She said she would buy Bavaria again. Her comments definitely mirror Polux's comments.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

I'm surprised to find so many members of this forum are so sensitive to criticisms of boats, be they fact or fiction, even to the point of suggesting that the moderators shut down the thread.

Perhaps I miss the point of a forum in the first place but I had always assumed that it was place open to share knowledge, ideas, experiences and opinions of like-minded people, rudeness, bad grammar, misspellings or ignorance notwithstanding. I have been grateful to this forum on many occasions when someone had pointed out that a product or service that I was considering had drawbacks of which I wasn't aware. I would be disappointed if moderators shut down threads where someone offered criticism.

Earlier on this thread, I posted on an event where I personally witnessed where a major structural failure on a Hunter that could have resulted in a catastrophe. I then offered my opinion. Is that not what this forum is for?

I get worried when those bent on civility encroach on censorship.

Fair winds and calm seas.

Funny, ain't it? You'd think if people were tired of hearing it they wouldn't subscribe to a thread titled "Bavaria or Hunter Bashing." The OP explicitly & carefully asked for opinions on what might explain the negative banter. You reported a dismasting, others discussed old rudder & keel problems, some discussed aesthetics, and others pointed to psychological factors & personality attributes that could explain the phenomena as having nothing to do with the boat. As usual, the negative reports were zealously countered, and the Hunter fans had their say.

Were the responses to the thread question supposed to say that people bash Hunters because they've successfully sailed to Cape Horn, they represent a good value, they have roomy interiors, and they make "cool" marketing videos???

I would agree that censorship shouldn't be tolerated, but that civility still counts. They are definitely not mutually exclusive.

[Kenomac]

Robert,

Are members like me who had a less than pleasant experience following the purchase of a modern Hunter flagship boat allowed to comment on this thread? Or, only members who still own and love their Hunter.

Sufficient to say, for boat with an original sticker price exceeding $250,000 back in 1998.... we expected more. We moved on.

So the way I understand the (new) rules/definition regarding "bashing," is that only positive comments should be allowed into the debate according to a few special Hunter owners, otherwise.... delicate feelings might be harmed. Apparently, the Hunter reputation is so fragile, that posting comments regarding actual failures should not be allowed to be discussed on CF according to some.

Ken

[carstenb]

Without knowing the exact numbers, I'd say that Bavaria is the most owned boat in Denmark (at least when you walk around the marinas). Some have had bad experiences with owning a bAvaria (there's always someone who has had a bad experience wiht any brand of boat), but if you look closely at a Bavaria it has:

lewmar winches
selden mast and boom
volvo penta saildrive
furlex genua furling
raymarine instrumentation
danfoss refrigeration

Most sailors would consider the above brands to be of reasonable qualtiy, especially for the weekend crowd or those not going high lat.

So what are compaints about?

thin glass - maybe, but lets remember the target market

poor cabinetry work - well for the price difference between a bavaria and say a Faurby (hand crafted) you can rip the guts out of a bavaria, have new cabinets hand crafted an still have a fairly substantial cruising kitty left over

poor sailing characteristics - my 33 footer sailed no better nor worse than most cruising boat. Had I taken the time and made the efforts to rerig the genua etc I could have gotten her to sail closer to the wind

Is it bashing to critize a boat - no not unless the critism is irrationally and applied liberally with a broad brush.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Robert,

Are members like me who had a less than pleasant experience following the purchase of a modern Hunter flagship boat allowed to comment on this thread? Or, only members who still own and love their Hunter.

Sufficient to say, for boat with an original sticker price exceeding $250,000 back in 1998.... we expected more. We moved on.

So the way I understand the (new) rules/definition regarding "bashing," is that only positive comments should be allowed into the debate according to a few special Hunter owners, otherwise.... delicate feelings might be harmed. Apparently, the Hunter reputation is so fragile, that posting comments regarding actual failures should not be allowed to be discussed on CF according to some.

Ken

When I was reading the thread about a Hunter sinking on a mooring in Catalina it got me thinking about where the less than stellar Hunter rep had come from. I added the Bavaria because it has a similar rep. I wanted to find out what caused this but I didn't want to do a "pile on" as there already was a thread going on that was doing a very ample job of critiquing the Hunters. You could tell even from the first few responses to my thread that even other cruisers that did not own Hunters were not happy with me starting the thread and felt it was set up to start a **** fest.
So yes I may have stifled the debate somewhat if that's even possible with this group of folks but I really wanted the history and for the most part that info came out. I apologies if I contributed to making this thread too safe a place for the Hunters and Bavarias, that was not the intent but I did say upfront that it was the history I was wanting and to avoid bashing. Some of you feel that it was not bashing to include current issues and in retrospect I agree with you.

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

I'm surprised to find so many members of this forum are so sensitive to criticisms of boats, be they fact or fiction, even to the point of suggesting that the moderators shut down the thread.

Perhaps I miss the point of a forum in the first place but I had always assumed that it was place open to share knowledge, ideas, experiences and opinions of like-minded people, rudeness, bad grammar, misspellings or ignorance notwithstanding. I have been grateful to this forum on many occasions when someone had pointed out that a product or service that I was considering had drawbacks of which I wasn't aware. I would be disappointed if moderators shut down threads where someone offered criticism.

Earlier on this thread, I posted on an event where I personally witnessed where a major structural failure on a Hunter that could have resulted in a catastrophe. I then offered my opinion. Is that not what this forum is for?

I get worried when those bent on civility encroach on censorship.

Fair winds and calm seas.

Some people just like to argue, and you will find your CF experience greatly improved if you use the ignore feature. It saves bandwidth and scrolling finger fatigue.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Definitely Paulo,you live in a buble isolated from the rest of the world...

Why do you say that? I receive information from magazines and friends from many countries and in different languages. It seems that what I say is shared by others that actually owned the boats.

Originally Posted by Finnsail

I met a European Bavaria owner at the Annapolis Show last fall. She owns a Bavaria that's in charter use. She only had positive things to say about the quality after years of charter use. She said she would buy Bavaria again. Her comments definitely mirror Polux's comments.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Without knowing the exact numbers, I'd say that Bavaria is the most owned boat in Denmark (at least when you walk around the marinas). Some have had bad experiences with owning a bAvaria (there's always someone who has had a bad experience wiht any brand of boat), but if you look closely at a Bavaria it has:

lewmar winches
selden mast and boom
volvo penta saildrive
furlex genua furling
raymarine instrumentation
danfoss refrigeration

Most sailors would consider the above brands to be of reasonable qualtiy, especially for the weekend crowd or those not going high lat.

So what are compaints about?
....
poor sailing characteristics - my 33 footer sailed no better nor worse than most cruising boat. Had I taken the time and made the efforts to rerig the genua etc I could have gotten her to sail closer to the wind

Is it bashing to critize a boat - no not unless the critism is irrationally and applied liberally with a broad brush.

One of the things German boats more even them French boats have is a huge amount of options that will make for considerable different boats....at a price.

In what regards Bavaria bought at a good dealer with a good manufacturer connection (the one where I bought my boat was selling over 200 boats a year) what they can offer as extras is just huge, not mentioning that the factory list of options is already impressive. Some options that they can offer:

6 winches instead of four, bigger winches, different masts (on my boat they offered 3 options - all selden) different quality sails, different quality sailing hardware, different keel, not only in draft but in material (lead), possibility of having integrated safety system with fixed lines for harnesses, not to mention interior and electronics.

I had that stupid idea that I was buying a boat for live so I went higher specs in everything and a boat that had the basic price of 99 000 euros costed me 150 000 euros

But that one with big draft, lead keel, performance mast and sails was not a slow boat. On my marina there was a guy with a new Beneteau Oceanis 393 and my boat was faster and pointed better (with a big 150% genoa) that his bigger Beneteau.

I remember a passage between Minorca and Sardinia done with an average speed well over 7k (weak wind and the start and finish) with many hours, under a beautiful moonshine, with the boat going over 9K, many times reaching over 10K and it was not the only time that I had made very fast passages, outsailing bigger boats.