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Old 11-01-2015, 13:56   #256
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That was just what I was talking about It seems that it is not me that is defensive but you.... and talking about reality:

Old boat are old designs and inferior in what regards design and performance. Regarding the building quality and looking only at high quality old boats and new (or almost new) mass production boats you have to consider that we are talking about the reliability of a 30 year old boat versus the reliability of a new or almost new boat.

That is not different in what regards cars or airplanes. Compare a 30 year old high quality car with a new Korean cheap car and tell me what is more reliable. Yes you can waste a fortune putting an old boat as new but nobody does that, well very few, and I have seen the numbers, it cost not far from a new boat from the same brand...and the boat value is not much higher than it was before. You can just make it out of love but love is not rational.

Regarding speed, yes in what regards new mass production designs and 30 year old ones, type for type, the difference is huge, kind of several days on an Atlantic Crossing or hours on a day sailing. You can use ARC or ARC world results to confirm that.

The difference between averaging 6 and 7 hours is huge. In what regards 10 hours of sailing it is more than one hour and a half, the difference to arrive with time to have a swim and a dinner at sunset or arriving at night. Regarding an Atlantic passage we are talking about 3 days difference, that is about what you see on the ARC between those two types of boats. More three days at sea can be only boring but can also mean the difference between avoiding a gale or not.

I am talking about an Atlantic Crossing but out of the trade winds the difference between a new boat and an old one can be sailing or motoring. Most modern boats sail with 6K wind while old boats need normally at least 9/10K. Just 3 or 4k it seems not much but the ones that sail on regions with weak and variable wind know that it is an huge difference in what regards sailing time and motoring time.

Not bashing old boats. I had one really old. They can be an alternative for the ones that cannot afford newer boats. That money needed to bring it to a good condition is assuming a shipyard doing the job. If one does all the job it can take years but in the end he will have a boat that could not have afforded any other way and having a boat is the more important. Off course if he had the means to buy a new boat he would have passed all those years, that took him to recover the boat sailing, but that is another story.
You enjoy this stuff too much but I can tell you if I had a choice for the same money to own a 5+ year old 45 foot Nijad compared to a new Benni 45 footer I would take the Nijad all day long, to me there is no comparison, hell add another few years and I would still choose the Nijad. It bothers me not that the Benni will be the latest design and will be a little faster although no one I know sails in 5 knots of wind offshore.
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:18   #257
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
So the four of us can agree that Barracudas, Gremlins, Pacers and Pintos were crap cars which raised significant safety concerns at the time? We laugh at these cars today.... right?

Why would boats be any different when significant safety concerns are raised when keels and rudders come loose on a couple of brands?
Actually, I was laughing at your weak, and non-sequitar, analogy.

OK, let's go with it. Please list all of the 35yr old high quality cars you see every day on the roads (and to my knowledge, Barracudas, Gremlins and Pacers had no safety issues - the Pacer actually pioneered several safety features found in cars today and was highly ranked by Consumer Reports and others).

Now explain how you connect a similar lack of 35yr old high quality cars on the road to anything related to boats.

There - that was my only point. Now try harder next time.

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Old 11-01-2015, 15:02   #258
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
I'll repeat my assessment, as the original topic gets lost among all the adamant bashing.

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

If people couldn't differentiate themselves through the products they own, luxury brands would go out of business. If they're on a watch forum, they gotta bash the Timex. How else can they justify the enormous sums they paid for their Tag Heuer or their Rolex? They can't admit that they paid more for their timepiece just to differentiate themselves from all those other dorks with watches. They're a discerning time-piece buyer, and can afford the very best.

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.

What else would the reason be? Otherwise, it really makes no sense for someone with (or who wants) one brand of boat to spend a lot of time bashing another boat brand.
Valid point if you desire a watch that actually keeps time, or just about any desire that compels you to favor any particular sports team over another. Maybe not so much if you prefer & can afford to buy Craftsman or (heaven forbid) Snap-On tools with a lifetime guaranty over less expensive ones from Harbor Freight. Are the Craftsman/Snap-On guys just motivated to pay more for their tools for the sake of trashing the HF guys?

Maybe some boat buyers have a thought process that says, when it comes to ocean voyaging anyway, overbuilt is just about right, at least when it comes to things like hulls, rudders & keels. I have no doubt that prestige & status are big factors with every consumer good, and that the mfgs. play to that. Forget Rolex, just look at diamond jewelry! But for some, high quality might also mean paying a premium for watertight bulkheads, solid bronze rudder stocks, through-hulls & seacocks that will last as long as the boat, and keels which are undisputedly integral to the rest of the boat. It also might mean that they put value on owning a 25-30 year old boat that will be worth the same or more in 5 years as a brand new production boat that was bought today would be worth in that same period of time.

You've correctly identified one valid reason for some peoples' attraction to more expensive boats, but there are many more, especially if finishing the ARC ahead of someone else or large amounts of interior space aren't the overriding virtues.
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Old 11-01-2015, 15:49   #259
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Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Average age of a General Aviation airplane in the Untied Staes is 36 yrs old I believe. The fact they are so old has nothing to do with how well they are built believe it or not, it has to do more than anything else with residual value and what a new one costs.
Very similar thing I believe with boats, the ones that still have a high resale value, will be saved, the ones that don't, won't.

There just really isn't that much difference between a 30 yr old mono hulled sailboat and a new one, not really. There has been no real game changer in composite construction. Nothing has happened like when fiberglass first began to be used on an wide basis.
I am surprised, I would have thought if people wanted to talk about modern sailboat advances, they would be talking about multi hulls, it just seems to me that is where the real advances are being made?


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Old 11-01-2015, 15:50   #260
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Here's something directly related to the title of this thread and the concept of bashing that I just can't seem to understand. When Polux posts something stating the there's been a problem with an Oyster rudder.... I want to know the model and year so that I can find out if it affects our boat and possibly our safety. I'm thankful for him offering up the information on the forum.

Then why is it, that if I or anyone else states on the forum some personal knowledge of a problem with a certain model Hunter related to safety... others and myself are always accused of "bashing the Hunter brand?" How is informing others of a safety issue.... bashing hunters? Would the owners of these boats prefer not to know what might possibly fail? Possible shortcomings? I don't get it.... Why so defensive? (FWY: We owned a Hunter 450)

If another Oyster owner finds a problem with their boat that might affect us.... I want to know about it. I wouldn't start calling names or accusing the owner of bashing the brand.


Isn't that what these forums are all about? Sharing information.

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Old 11-01-2015, 16:26   #261
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Over the years Ive noticed in the aviation industry, the motor industry and boating, it really comes down to:

1/. Appeal.
2/. Speed.
3/. Comfort.

All of these are governed by.............wait for it: Price.

One hundred years ago wooden boats were regularly going round the horn. I would wager with the right crew, the same vessels could do it today.

What does this tell me? A lot of the bashing is judged by criteria that modern pundits say are essential. Id say it comes down to sturdiness of the vessel and knowledge of what you are dealing with and being a moderate to competent sailor.

Do you know how many mono Westerly Centaurs have sailed from the U.K. to the States? a fair few only being British they didnt make a song and dance about it. Lots of Catalac catamarans have done it too. Geminis the other way.

I think what Im seeing on this thread is expectations versus the vessel being discussed. If my Hunter would not do the speed I desired, Id change it to a vessel that would. If a Bavaria would not perform in a certain manner that I expected, Id change it for something else.

Some Hunter owners in the joy of owning their vessel have actually managed to do something remarkable. Due to their blind and antagonistic allegiance in the defence of the marque, they actually have turned me off from owning the boat. Its a shame because I think they are really a good boat. I just dont want to deal with the shouts and squeals of outraged owners when told their boat colour sucks or someone doesnt like the bow cleat and be associated with a fan club. Get a life guys, you like it and thats all that matters. haters will hate and some owners will make outrageous claims.

Its a boat. It either will do what is claimed or if not, we will read about it.

If I owned one, or any boat Ive owned your very welcome to detract away. You can even tell lies and try and destroy everyones appreciation in my boat because frankly my dear.........

I would however welcome experience and critical knowledge from someone about my vessel. When I bought a Gemini to resell, I was on the Gemini owners yahoo group and because of that I bought the vessel knowing what needed to be done and did it from the information that was freely given. Geminis are great Catamarans, and as a great marque they have known faults from the owners. Its a fact of life. Things have issues in the build. Well I fixed the issues and managed to get a better resell price for it and the new owner had one less job to do.

I had a loved and cherished MGB. After the 3rd gearbox and one other issue, I still loved it but the love got outweighed by the lack of folding in the pocket book.

I say love what we have got, enjoy it but be critically aware of its quirks. When detractors give their opinions, wave them goodbye from the jetty as you head out for a great day or week or month............. but be sure in yourself everything is seaworthy for the trip you are making.

Kenomac has a Fabulous Oyster, he keeps it well. Only....... I would not want an Oyster. Its his boat and he loves it and thats how it should be. Id love to sail on it....... but the 'love' issue is not there for me. Not a single thing is taken away from his boat in that weavis dont love it.

You guys have taught me so much, at least when it is not a bitch fest or injured feelings party. There is so much knowledge here I feel really privileged to read your words.

I have a Westerly Centaur right now. I love it. Thats why I have it. There also is a Colvic Watson in the family. I love it. Im the only one that actually takes it out occasionally as its used as Dock Queen...... its due for some sail changes and a bit of TLC but its faults and needs all fade to turquoise when Im powering in a force 5, drinking a coffee and singing at the top of voice for the sheer joy of sailing....

Dont ever lose that or you will lose it all. And that is something no one here wants to see.
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Old 11-01-2015, 16:41   #262
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
You enjoy this stuff too much but I can tell you if I had a choice for the same money to own a 5+ year old 45 foot Nijad compared to a new Benni 45 footer I would take the Nijad all day long, to me there is no comparison, hell add another few years and I would still choose the Nijad. It bothers me not that the Benni will be the latest design and will be a little faster although no one I know sails in 5 knots of wind offshore.
You mean Najad Me too but a 5 year old Najad is not an old designed boat and besides a five year old Najad costs a lot more than a new Beneteau 45 and the speed difference would not be significant. I was more thinking about choosing between a 30 year old designed Mason 44 and a 7 year old Dufour 44.

Mason 44 Cutter boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Dufour 44 Performance Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 11-01-2015, 16:58   #263
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Here's something directly related to the title of this thread and the concept of bashing that I just can't seem to understand. When Polux posts something stating the there's been a problem with an Oyster rudder.... I want to know the model and year so that I can find out if it affects our boat and possibly our safety. I'm thankful for him offering up the information on the forum.
...
Ken
I Only posted that comment because you were associating crap cars with crap boats and were talking about keels and rudders coming lose on a couple of (crap) brands. The association was clear at least for me. I was just pointing out that they come lose also from Oyster and keels out of very high quality brands like Sweden yacht or Maxi Yacht.

I was not suggesting that Oyster have any problem with the rudders, just pointing out that your association and generalization between inexpensive boats, not to call them "crap" and lack of reliability in what regard losing keels or rudders was an abusive one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
....
So the four of us can agree that Barracudas, Gremlins, Pacers and Pintos were crap cars which raised significant safety concerns at the time? We laugh at these cars today.... right?

Why would boats be any different when significant safety concerns are raised when keels and rudders come loose on a couple of brands?
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:16   #264
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Over the years Ive noticed in the aviation industry, the motor industry and boating, it really comes down to:

1/. Appeal.
2/. Speed.
3/. Comfort.

All of these are governed by.............wait for it: Price.
Yes that's pretty much the crux of it. I'm sure there are a few like me following these threads that in the near future are in the market for a sailboat, and hoping to glean some useful information.

Myself. I'm a marketers worst nightmare. I'm not brand loyal at all. I evaluate almost all my major purchases on functionality, price and lastly form, depending upon the application and the price point. I dare say my first car purchase was an AMC Pacer, butt ugly car (I felt like I was flying a spaceship sometimes rather than driving a car), but I was newly married, broke and didn't need a chick magnet. My first dive watch was a Huer, because at the time it performed the best and had the best warranty. It's mostly relegated to the drawer and I wear a cheap timex sport watch 9/10ths of the time. I am the antithesis of a poser.

I'll be in the market for a boat b/n $150K and 200K. So far it's looking like a 4-7 yr old Beneteau, Jeannneau, Hunter, Hanse, Bavaria etc. would fit the bill, and suit my spouse (very much a factor as compared to looking at a 20-25 yr old boat). Sure I will have to upgrade certain components, but it probably won't be $100K in upgrades. After I do some alterations do I think it will be an Oyster or a Swan-no. But hopefully it will get me from point A to B relatively comfortably and safely, even if that is across an ocean or two at the right time of year.

So, if I get one of these I'll have a look at the rudder attachments and determine whether it needs beefing up. These threads have perhaps helped determine whether the fix by the Aussie couple on the Cyclades is worthwhile/advisable.

So keep the information coming and the bashing to a minimum!

Cheers, Foz
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:30   #265
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Over the years Ive noticed in the aviation industry, the motor industry and boating, it really comes down to:

1/. Appeal.
2/. Speed.
3/. Comfort.

All of these are governed by.............wait for it: Price.

One hundred years ago wooden boats were regularly going round the horn. I would wager with the right crew, the same vessels could do it today.

What does this tell me? A lot of the bashing is judged by criteria that modern pundits say are essential. Id say it comes down to sturdiness of the vessel and knowledge of what you are dealing with and being a moderate to competent sailor.

Do you know how many mono Westerly Centaurs have sailed from the U.K. to the States? a fair few only being British they didnt make a song and dance about it. Lots of Catalac catamarans have done it too. Geminis the other way.

I think what Im seeing on this thread is expectations versus the vessel being discussed. If my Hunter would not do the speed I desired, Id change it to a vessel that would. If a Bavaria would not perform in a certain manner that I expected, Id change it for something else.

Some Hunter owners in the joy of owning their vessel have actually managed to do something remarkable. Due to their blind and antagonistic allegiance in the defence of the marque, they actually have turned me off from owning the boat. Its a shame because I think they are really a good boat. I just dont want to deal with the shouts and squeals of outraged owners when told their boat colour sucks or someone doesnt like the bow cleat and be associated with a fan club. Get a life guys, you like it and thats all that matters. haters will hate and some owners will make outrageous claims.

Its a boat. It either will do what is claimed or if not, we will read about it.

If I owned one, or any boat Ive owned your very welcome to detract away. You can even tell lies and try and destroy everyones appreciation in my boat because frankly my dear.........

I would however welcome experience and critical knowledge from someone about my vessel. When I bought a Gemini to resell, I was on the Gemini owners yahoo group and because of that I bought the vessel knowing what needed to be done and did it from the information that was freely given. Geminis are great Catamarans, and as a great marque they have known faults from the owners. Its a fact of life. Things have issues in the build. Well I fixed the issues and managed to get a better resell price for it and the new owner had one less job to do.

I had a loved and cherished MGB. After the 3rd gearbox and one other issue, I still loved it but the love got outweighed by the lack of folding in the pocket book.

I say love what we have got, enjoy it but be critically aware of its quirks. When detractors give their opinions, wave them goodbye from the jetty as you head out for a great day or week or month............. but be sure in yourself everything is seaworthy for the trip you are making.

Kenomac has a Fabulous Oyster, he keeps it well. Only....... I would not want an Oyster. Its his boat and he loves it and thats how it should be. Id love to sail on it....... but the 'love' issue is not there for me. Not a single thing is taken away from his boat in that weavis dont love it.

You guys have taught me so much, at least when it is not a bitch fest or injured feelings party. There is so much knowledge here I feel really privileged to read your words.

I have a Westerly Centaur right now. I love it. Thats why I have it. There also is a Colvic Watson in the family. I love it. Im the only one that actually takes it out occasionally as its used as Dock Queen...... its due for some sail changes and a bit of TLC but its faults and needs all fade to turquoise when Im powering in a force 5, drinking a coffee and singing at the top of voice for the sheer joy of sailing....

Dont ever lose that or you will lose it all. And that is something no one here wants to see.
Nice commentary Weavis, so thanks.

When you mentioned the Hunter "thing," I couldn't help remembering a post on this or a related thread not too long ago that mentioned how much more productive the brand-specific forums are, presumably in part because there is no "bashing." I've never checked it out, but doesn't the Hunter forum, for e.g., also discuss problems & failures with Hunter's?? That's not bashing but a report of a busted rudder post or cleat that ripped out on CF somehow is? Can't you guys put reports of a single or a few incidents in an appropriate light?

I kinda like the approach of a multi-hull owner on here who reported having to deal with mono-hull owners going out of their way to tell him his boat is dangerous or whatever. He just smiles & waves as he soon disappears over the horizon.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:48   #266
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You mean Najad Me too but a 5 year old Najad is not an old designed boat and besides a five year old Najad costs a lot more than a new Beneteau 45 and the speed difference would not be significant. I was more thinking about choosing between a 30 year old designed Mason 44 and a 7 year old Dufour 44.

Mason 44 Cutter boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Dufour 44 Performance Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Well OK I'm not sure that is a fair choice and I am not a fan of the Mason's per se as I'm not crazy about full keels but if I had the choice between a mint 30 year old Mason 44 and a 7 year old Dufour it would be a tough choice..I think the Mason would continue to hold its value and the Dufour would continue to lose it. The Mason is much prettier to the eye. If the Dufour was not built with full hull liners and had a real bilge then I would probably bend that way as I would like the maneuverability it offers.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:49   #267
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Well said, Weavis.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:58   #268
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
When you mentioned the Hunter "thing," I couldn't help remembering a post on this or a related thread not too long ago that mentioned how much more productive the brand-specific forums are, presumably in part because there is no "bashing." I've never checked it out, but doesn't the Hunter forum, for e.g., also discuss problems & failures with Hunter's?? That's not bashing but a report of a busted rudder post or cleat that ripped out on CF somehow is? Can't you guys put reports of a single or a few incidents in an appropriate light?
The Hunter Owner's Forum is a very good source if I have a specific question related to my particular boat. SBO is not only Hunter, but Catalina, Mac....actually AMF through Yamaha sailboats. Also several trawlers. As I say, a good source for dealing with issues with a particular boat. Never any bashing, but also a bit boring and dry. Well, except for the OT thread about Boat Babe on Strike....


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Old 11-01-2015, 18:00   #269
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I Only posted that comment because you were associating crap cars with crap boats and were talking about keels and rudders coming lose on a couple of (crap) brands. The association was clear at least for me. I was just pointing out that they come lose also from Oyster and keels out of very high quality brands like Sweden yacht or Maxi Yacht.

I was not suggesting that Oyster have any problem with the rudders, just pointing out that your association and generalization between inexpensive boats, not to call them "crap" and lack of reliability in what regard losing keels or rudders was an abusive one.
That was not my intention at all. I was simply trying to make the association with public perception. Back in the 1970s the Pinto car became perceived as a death trap due to only 27 cars out of over 3,000,000 catching fire following a rear end collision. So I wanted to make a point as to why it's not its not surprising that sailors might question the safety of a boat model which has had several recorded mishaps involving safety. I was not calling the boats "crap," never said that on my post. I was stating that the safety perception shouldn't be a surprise.

My gut feeling... This concern and over sensitivity about "bashing" will all die down very soon, mostly due to a former serial poster exiting the forum. The issues discussed will quickly return to normal.
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Old 11-01-2015, 18:03   #270
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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The Hunter Owner's Forum is a very good source if I have a specific question related to my particular boat. SBO is not only Hunter, but Catalina, Mac....actually AMF through Yamaha sailboats. Also several trawlers. As I say, a good source for dealing with issues with a particular boat. Never any bashing, but also a bit boring and dry. Well, except for the OT thread about Boat Babe on Strike....

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