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Old 03-03-2012, 10:36   #31
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Whenever i am in the market to buy an item,,i always ask the seller if the item is open to offers,,unless i think the item is already a great deal.
Some may call me old fashioned, but i have always believed in Full Disclosure,,as when i have sold a classic car with issues,,,i have always listed said issues to the buyer,,this way nothing ever comes back on me and i sleep like a baby.
Those who think in terms of cold hard business i would escort "Very Roughly" off my property as i have no time for this type of Carpet Bagger.

As a Boating community we should try to maintain some level of Decorum and Honor as without these things the age old maritime rules will not apply,,,think...skipper of the Costa Concordia and you will see what i mean.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:57   #32
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

BTW All the BoatAngel boats that I have seen listed are major projects. Also someone posted something weird about the title being held for a year or more before you get it. Also most of these are as is where is. There is a reason why they were donated to charity.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:57   #33
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

As a recent buyer, and consequently a current seller, I appreciate a transaction where both parties are open, honest and respectful. Yes, the seller and the buyer have competing interests. They also have different pressures and different abilities, but this does not mean the transaction has be a financial blood sport.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:03   #34
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
You're being too sensitive. It is a business deal, not a date. Is the seller being 'deceptive' if he lists a boat at much higher price than he will take? Look at whatever boats are on the market. Make offers at prices that work for you. The seller will decide if it works for them.
I agree, the sellers seldom tell you everything that is wrong with the boat... even letting you go to the expense of survey etc...why treat them better than they treat you. 35% less in the good economy was common enough. Now... anything goes. There are some amazing deals out there right now. It's business. that's all. Get it as cheap as possible.... dont be bashful, but of you are really interested, make the deal work if the price is reasonable. Be careful though, dont buy the cheapest one you can find when for 10% more you can get one that needs a lot less work.... Oh, but dont assume the one for 10% more is better either... gawd this is complicated!
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:04   #35
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Some of us have been forcibly put out to pasture on a shoe string budget,,so Boat Angel is very attractive to guy's like us.........

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BTW All the BoatAngel boats that I have seen listed are major projects. Also someone posted something weird about the title being held for a year or more before you get it. Also most of these are as is where is. There is a reason why they were donated to charity.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:08   #36
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I recently was in the market searching for the right boat, and found one at a very fair price. In the process, I did not have to insult the seller, and he went ahead and did allot of work on it even after we closed the deal. The broker involved was a little rough, but overall, the experience was good. I have a great boat now which I bought way under the asking prices of similar ones on the market. I figure I will have to put around $5k into it to update some electronics, etc. My perception in searching for a boat online was that if the asking price was high, I wouldn't bother trying to low ball a seller. My reasoning was that the seller obviously had some notion his boat was at least worth what he was asking and accepting a lowball offer pending a survey could lead him to remove whatever he could get away with prior to closing the sale or being unhelpful in the transition after the sale. In my case, the seller knew the boat inside and out and we had a nice transition where he spent a lot of time on the boat, phone, and email to answer any of my questions and to inform me of what to items might need attention. He also took the time to deal with many items from the survey he didn't have any obligation to do. This turnover was valuable to me. The other problem with high listing prices is that many of these sellers aren't really serious about selling their boat.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:14   #37
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Originally Posted by CHM View Post
I recently was in the market searching for the right boat, and found one at a very fair price. In the process, I did not have to insult the seller, and he went ahead and did allot of work on it even after we closed the deal. The broker involved was a little rough, but overall, the experience was good. I have a great boat now which I bought way under the asking prices of similar ones on the market. I figure I will have to put around $5k into it to update some electronics, etc. My perception in searching for a boat online was that if the asking price was high, I wouldn't bother trying to low ball a seller. My reasoning was that the seller obviously had some notion his boat was at least worth what he was asking and accepting a lowball offer pending a survey could lead him to remove whatever he could get away with prior to closing the sale or being unhelpful in the transition after the sale. In my case, the seller knew the boat inside and out and we had a nice transition where he spent a lot of time on the boat, phone, and email to answer any of my questions and to inform me of what to items might need attention. He also took the time to deal with many items from the survey he didn't have any obligation to do. This turnover was valuable to me. The other problem with high listing prices is that many of these sellers aren't really serious about selling their boat.
OK, I'll bite. So what percentage off the original asking price did you offer? What percent off was the final deal? How recently did it close?
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:24   #38
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

C'mon...tell the seller y'wanna lowball him at the beginning? I understand the argument and I understand the equitable treatment of fellow sailors but having said that, It is a buyers market. If you lowball him and he doesn't take it (after he has had had a chance to meet you and know you're gonna love his baby) he'll have to deal with the next guy's lowball. That's what a "Buyer's market" means. (See Laffer, Arthur - Supply/Demand )
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:44   #39
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In reply to Paul L: It's a 1988 Oceanis 430. Asking price was $59000. I offered $50000. Final agreed price after survey $56000. I have not seen this particular boat in as good a shape as I bought for anywhere near this price. Closed the deal 3 months ago. Obviously, the seller was motivated and I was initially concerned the low price meant "project". I think I got a great deal and didn't have an angry seller who felt screwed in the deal.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:45   #40
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Profiteering is what got us into the financial crisis in the first place.
Dont get me wrong,,making a profit is reasonable,,but raping and pillaging the seller or buyer just stinks to high heaven.
Supply and demand is the all time excuse for those wanting to hike the price and run like thieves ...give me fair bargaining anytime...


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C'mon...tell the seller y'wanna lowball him at the beginning? I understand the argument and I understand the equitable treatment of fellow sailors but having said that, It is a buyers market. If you lowball him and he doesn't take it (after he has had had a chance to meet you and know you're gonna love his baby) he'll have to deal with the next guy's lowball. That's what a "Buyer's market" means. (See Laffer, Arthur - Supply/Demand )
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:48   #41
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Originally Posted by sailstoo View Post
C'mon...tell the seller y'wanna lowball him at the beginning? I understand the argument and I understand the equitable treatment of fellow sailors but having said that, It is a buyers market. If you lowball him and he doesn't take it (after he has had had a chance to meet you and know you're gonna love his baby) he'll have to deal with the next guy's lowball. That's what a "Buyer's market" means. (See Laffer, Arthur - Supply/Demand )
Lowball definition:
1. to give (a customer) a deceptively low price or cost estimate
2. to give a markedly or unfairly low offer

Lowballing is not the same as making a lower offer. Lowballing is attempting to get something at far below a fair and reasonable price.

There's certainly nothing wrong with offering a lower price than the ask. The seller probably has the boat listed at something higher than they are willing to accept, so certainly go lower. But if you are intentionally attempting to get the boat for price that is way below the value, then saying so at the start simple ensures no one wastes their time.

I have no problem receiving a lowball bid for our boat, just like I have no problem telling the bidder to go look at other boats.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:53   #42
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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In reply to Paul L: It's a 1988 Oceanis 430. Asking price was $59000. I offered $50000. Final agreed price after survey $56000. I have not seen this particular boat in as good a shape as I bought for anywhere near this price. Closed the deal 3 months ago. Obviously, the seller was motivated and I was initially concerned the low price meant "project". I think I got a great deal and didn't have an angry seller who felt screwed in the deal.
Looks like a great deal. A quick look at YachtWorld shows asking prices from 199k to 75k. Give those the 30% market haircut and you came in close to the bottom.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:57   #43
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

These subjects are usually fun .

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Originally Posted by Boulter View Post
Hi:

I am in the same position as the OP. Not really a haggler at heart, but the scale of dollars we are potentially talking here, I think I need to give it a good shot. Here is my thinking so far.

Step one for me was to identify a number of different types of boats. A C&C Landfall 39 was the first boat we set foot in that hit a few key things for us: massive headroom to hold me (6'4") and relatives (taller!), and a cabin layout that made sense for lots of friends and family participation. That boat and another 6 months of reading and research identified a number of boats that are similar: Whitby 42 and Brewer derivatives, CSY 44, Reliance 44, Spencer 1330 and others. I am not falling in love with any one boat design, but rather have identified a number of boats that get a passing grade of 50% (There are no boats for anyone that score higher than 70% I figure, that compromise thing).

Step two is now to somehow physically get on examples of these boats just to make sure of key things like the actual headroom matches the "internet" headroom, and in general just confirm the theoretical ideas from my readings.

Step three has not yet been done. Make some lowball offers and be prepared to walk away. Might be best to not start with an offer on the favoured design. Do this 3 or 4 times and your reputation will start to preceed you. Brokers will know your offer is your offer, you don't fall in love with a particular boat, and the seller can then decide if they want to sell to you or not.

Boulter
IMO step 1 is a very good approach .

Step 2 is essential - apart from getting hands on experiance with specific boats and models, will soon get a heads up on the gap between internet "good" and reality. Does that make you a "Time waster"? - no more than most Vendors / Brokers.

Step 3 - being able (and willing) to walk away is key (in any negotiation).


DOJ's suggested approach

In regards to offers only one "rule" applies....."do unto others before they do unto you" ............if you don't understand that when buying you will when selling! .

Step 1 Google up a boat

Step 2 take description with a pinch of salt (everything is a lie until proven otherwise).

Step 3 contact the Broker (or Vendor) and ask for any additional details and enquire about having a look aboard.....also ask directly whether anything wrong with the boat / needs replacing or repair (can say that is not a deal breaker in itself, just don't want to waste anyone's time looking at something that is unsuitable - unless that is what you want!).

Step 4 if Broker does not respond within 24 Hours, then save yourself aggro later and move on to someone else.

Step 5 if Broker ok for a look aboard, then have a lookaboard! (take camera and notebook for observations and queries to Google up later on.....and compare listing details to the reality).

Step 6 tell the Broker if definately not interested due to condition or model not quite what you thought.

Step 7 Check with the broker what the expected MO is on making an offer / arranging a seatrial / a survey haulout (some Brokers / Owners have weird ideas - save yourself time and effort by scratching 'em out early)......also try and wheedle out as much info as possible about the Vendor / his circumstances and how long the boat has been owned, including whether any finance or other debts on the boat.....especially if the boat looks like it has been let go a bit. A bit of a giveaway is when engine last serviced / any other recent bills....how much the Berthing costs is also useful to know how much not selling is costing. Might also want to chat with any Marina Staff about whether bills are paid up to date.

Step 8 on the money front, play it casual ....don't even talk ballparks - just say are interested, but have a few things to mull over / research as well as a few other boats to look at / have already seen......which is all true.

Step 9 let 'em sweat for a few days / a week .

Step 10 Work out what the boat is worth to you - in comparison to other vessels that do the same job (not neccessarily the same model).

Step 11 Halve that figure .

Step 12 Tell the Broker that you are considering making an offer IRO $XXX (but don't make an actual offer) as you have done some initial costings / comparisons ........which you will firm up into a hard offer (subject to sea trial and survey) when you visit the vessel again - but you don't want to waste either his or your time doing a 2nd visit.

May also want to make clear that any offer will be on the basis that everything is good / acceptable, unless disclosed otherwise (remember that question you asked in Step 3? - this is the Owner's / Broker's final chance to fess up).....and that therefore as long as the Survey doesn't throw up anything important / above $500 then your offer will remain good (i.e the Survey will not be used as a bargaining tool - you can of course change your mind on that, always enough scope!).....could also mention that you are aware that the boat is 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 years old and therefore so will be much of the equipment - so not expecting factory fresh / everything to be good for 20 years.....that's all priced into the offer.

Step 13 Await response .

Step 14 If the Broker / Owner gives a straight Foxtrot Oscar without any counter "ballpark" offer then try and get some clue as to how far out you are or any other reasons for a refusal......the info is useful for future boats......would suggest leaving your ballpark on the table.

Step 15 If the Broker / Owner makes a counter ballpark offer then the game is on .....and then it's just a question of numbers (yours!) and how they stack against the competition (his!).

Step 15a If the Broker / Owner is happy with your ballpark, kick yourself for not going lower!.....but console yourself that you have left yourself room to do that after a 2nd visit (you said IRO - not above!).

Step 15b If the Broker says he won't present any offer (whether firm or ballpark) without a cheque for 10% tell him to Foxtrot Oscar .

Step 16 Second visit to check details / obtain add info to further research any things that need or you want to upgrade or replace etc etc.

Step 17 Make lots of good noises! but don't commit yourself to an offer figure just yet.....tell him the offer will be made once you have given the numbers a final crunch....and give him a timescale (within 1 week, hopefully a couple of days).

Step 18 After a week, make the offer (subject to seatrial and survey etc).....and that offer good for a week.......at this point may be some negotiation - but how much of that is up to the person writing the cheque.

Step 19 Sign the contract. Or move on....maybe indicate that although the offer has been withdrawn, that Vendor wants to talk later then you will be willing to listen (if you have not already bought something else).

Step 20 at that point I would consider making a deposit (I appreciate that cultures differ on that side - for some giving 10% to a complete stranger is considered normal .....for me a nominal deposit, a signed contract and the Buyer paying for a haulout and survey is good enough to consider them as "serious". IME few people throw away $1k (plus?!) for fun - unless Alcohol and loose women are involved!).

TIME WASTING?

In my book, the Broker / Vendor swapping a few e-mails and facilitating one visit to the boat before a ballpark figure is proposed is NOT wasting anyone's time.

A second visit and a few more e-mails before a firm offer is made is just the cost of doing business - for both parties. A serious buyer is no more interested in wasting time than a serious Vendor.....if a boat is genuinely as described (warts and all) then it's all quick and painless - if Vendor is trying to play silly beggers by hiding info that will later be patently obvious then it can be a waste of time, but that is his choice.

If Vendor wants a quick no effort sale - get the Broker to list it on E-bay, priced to reflect no pre or post sale inspection until cash in the bank.....but on the otherhand if he does want more than pennies in the dollar the Vendor / Broker does have to put some effort in - it's just how life / business is, especially with secondhand items.
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Old 03-03-2012, 13:05   #44
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Totally agree, the emotive comment about taking advantage of a widow is just silly, we are all human beings and most of us care.

We are talking about a proper business deal not a "Tinman con job"
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Old 03-03-2012, 13:14   #45
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Twelve months ago I sold my little Compass 29 expecting my new boat to be finished soon. (I'm still waiting). I had paid $40,000 for it 3 years earlier which is roughly what they were getting for them at the time. Of course the market had gone into a tailspin by the time I put it on the market. The boat had been broken into several times and some equipment stolen (VHF, binimi & dodger). I made the decision not to replace such items but put it on the market at a lower price. It went on at about $32K and received no offers for months. There were several others on the market for the same price or dearer. Finally, I put it on at $29K and it was the cheapest Compass 29 advertised, but probably not the worst. I did start to get inspections but only one offer at $20K which I accepted becuase I didn't want to be owning 2 boats at the same time. My assessment of the market is that the boats are worth about half of what the owners think they are and that most owners would rather not sell to a low ball offer than recognise that this is the new "normal". You only have to look at how cheap a new production boat is to realise that this will have a flow on effect, drastically lowering the price of everything on the market.
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