Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

[Nemo55]

Caring about what happens to a fellow Mariner is not being too sensitive in my opinion.
Business can always be conducted with heart.

Originally Posted by Paul L

You're being too sensitive. It is a business deal, not a date. Is the seller being 'deceptive' if he lists a boat at much higher price than he will take? Look at whatever boats are on the market. Make offers at prices that work for you. The seller will decide if it works for them.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Again ditto on Ices post. There is negotiating and then there are attempts to take advantage of people. Buyers are no more concerned about getting a good price than the sellers are. What's worse, the person who bought a boat from a widow for $35K less than the value or the unsuspecting buyer who paid $35 more than they should?
It's too bad that ethics and honor don't rule the day.

Going out of your way to screw someone is clearly Bad Karma. But in today's market (or actually any market), what is the value of a boat? It is the price that a welling seller and a willing buyer agree on. Nothing more or less. Make an offer, accept or reject an offer. The place where the ethics comes in is when the listing is not accurate, the broker makes statements that aren't true or the buyer doesn't have the money to close.

Concerning buyers ethics, I don't like the buyer who makes an offer that is accepted, then uses the survey to renegotiate the price based on survey items that would have been obvious prior to the survey, like teak decks in bad shape. If the survey shows up items that would not have been obvious to the buyer on a cursory review like wet cores, then sure, time to renegotiate.

[Pete7]

Its been said before on here, but the best result is were the buyer feels he has paid slightly over the top for a boat and the seller has sold slightly below the value.

This is now our 5th year of owning April Lass, we still send and receive Xmas cards and post cards of the places we visit to the previous owners.

Pete

[familycruisers]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Again ditto on Ices post. There is negotiating and then there are attempts to take advantage of people. Buyers are no more concerned about getting a good price than the sellers are. What's worse, the person who bought a boat from a widow for $35K less than the value or the unsuspecting buyer who paid $35 more than they should?
It's too bad that ethics and honor don't rule the day.

I don't think I'm ethically or morally responsible for their misfortune, my offer is my offer. If they feel its too low say no. The widow that gets 35k less still gets rid of all the other bills that go along with that hole in the water that sitting on land racking up fees. I personally avoided brokers. They aren't interested in selling the boats I was interests in. The boats that are deals aren't being handled by brokers anyway, they have been long forgot by them.
The deals are sitting in the back of the marina, with a for sale sign, that isn't even being advertised except maybe on Craigslist. Drive around the marinas are the best way to find deals.

[ice]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Is the seller being 'deceptive' if he lists a boat at much higher price than he will take?

There's nothing deceptive there. The asking price is public and fully stated. What is deceptive is going in and taking the sellers time and energy with no intention or communication that you are ever offering anywhere near the asking.

If the asking price is followed by something like 'offers welcome' or anything similar, then anything is fair. The owner has signaled that he is looking for any offer.

If you go look at a boat, fully aware of the asking price, and don't say anything, the assumption is that you are willing to be within lets say 10-15% of the asking, assuming the boat is as described. You are taking being deceptive and taking advantage of the current honor based system if you don't and never intend to be near the asking. The owner or broker are taking valuable time and energy to show you the boat. If enough people do that, then the system will have to change, to say require no-return deposits before showing a boat.

Originally Posted by familycruisers

I don't think I'm ethically or morally responsible for their misfortune, my offer is my offer. If they feel its too low say no. The widow that gets 35k less still gets rid of all the other bills that go along with that hole in the water that sitting on land racking up fees.

First, my simple point is that if your intention is to offer way less than the asking, you should communicate that early in the process. If 35k is anywhere near the 'market value' then that's perfectly fine. Let the owner know early, provide support for your argument if you have it, and if they want to proceed then everyone wins.

Second, and perhaps more debatable in our 'hard cruel world', if 35K is well below the true 'marklet price' and all you are trying to do is screw a poor and uninformed widow before she learns what the true market price is, then you are certaintly not following the golden rule, and I personally would say being unethetical, but are certaintly being legal and a full partner of the 'profit at any price' group.

I don't except everyone to agree with me on this. Ethics and honor are pretty obsolete terms and long gone from 'business'. It would be nice if we, as cruising sailors, could view our passion as community rather than business.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by ice

........

If you go look at a boat, fully aware of the asking price, and don't say anything, the assumption is that you are willing to be within lets say 10-15% of the asking, ....

I don't know if you are a seller, a buyer or just a watcher, but you are dreaming if you think 10 to 15% is the typical offerring off of asking.g. This market is far more brutal for sellers.

[clockwork orange]

I have got to agree with Ice, an honorable human being is unfortunatly a rare breed.
Steve.

[Kettlewell]

I personally avoided brokers. They aren't interested in selling the boats I was interests in. The boats that are deals aren't being handled by brokers anyway, they have been long forgot by them.
The deals are sitting in the back of the marina, with a for sale sign, that isn't even being advertised except maybe on Craigslist. Drive around the marinas are the best way to find deals

The owners are usually more willing to deal than the brokers, because the broker earns his pay as a percentage of the selling price--it isn't in their interest to work with you to get the price down. Plus there is nothing unethical at all about taking a look at a boat before making an offer that is low. How are you supposed to know what the boat is worth unless you take a look? As I have said before I am not going to lowball someone just to fish for the lowest price, but I am going to assess what the boat is worth to me and make an offer around that number. Sometimes that would be what someone considers a "lowball" offer, but sometimes I might be paying close to asking price. Many, many boats are priced unrealistically. The owner and/or broker argues that it just (meaning five years ago) went through a major refit that cost $50,000 and therefore they are asking $50K more than most of the other boats on the market. That just doesn't make sense but you see it all the time.

[avb3]

Something I learned a long time ago, that a used asset is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.

That may be 50% of what you were hoping to get, or it may be higher.

Thoughts, hopes, wishes and list prices don't write checks, buyers do.

[Jolly Roger]

I don’t know why there is all this talk about what offer to make, and whether you will upset the seller, or steal his boat, etcetera, etcetera.
All you have to do is tell the seller, (or his broker), to give you the lowest figure he will accept, on the basis you will then say either yes or no—no negotiation—even after a survey! If a survey reveals the boat is not up to scratch you will reject it—no further negotiation, period!
This saves wringing your hands whether your “offer” will be accepted—an automatic trigger for the seller to counter-offer anyway—and also saves the seller getting all upset with your “ridiculous” offer.
I met a few brokers who wouldn’t even present this proposal to an owner, until I told them it was their fiduciary duty to present all offers, and this was just a different type of offer.
If the seller still won’t give you his lowest figure, (and they all have one), then walk away. You will be surprised how many came back to me a week or two later with a figure.

[Okraskin]

I've just purchased my first boat last week. I've been hunting for the right boat for about 9 months. In this market I was at a distinct advantage but like Ice said, I did not waste the sellers time. I tried to make an offer early in the process so they new where they were heading. I did renegotiate after the survey when there was approximately10k worth of work to be done. I had a great broker who was willing to let me make low offers, I believe he only only rolled his eyes once or twice. In the end I bought a beautiful boat at a great price because I was able to walk away when the deal wasn't right for me. I had walked away from 6 other deals and two of them had come back to me after I had started negotiating this last deal. You can negotiate hard and still be respectful.

[kthoennes]

Exactly, that's the key. You have to be patient and willing to walk away. Keep those two things in mind and eventually a great deal will come along.

I'm an old fashioned honor person myself, but I don't get all these discussions about the ethics of making offers. Like the quote from the Godfather, it's business Sonny, it isn't personal.

[Tellie]

Most people are pretty decent. But if one doesn't know the difference between negotiating a good deal and taking legal advantage of someones widow, then explaning morals and ethics to that person is casting pearls before swine.

[rognvald]

I agree 100% with Ice's comments. A buyer has the right to offer whatever he feels the vessel is worth but he should not waste the seller's time without communicating his intention immediately. One can be a hard bargainer without being rude, offensive and caustic. The seller then has the option to consider the buyer's ballpark offer or to decline it and not waste his time in negotiations that will never result in a sale. Unfortunately, we live in a world where manners, propriety and decorum have been sadly lost where some believe the world revolves around "ME" and the rest be damned. The way you conduct a prospective purchase tells volumes about who you are as a human being. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

[David M]

Some of the best deals come from people who suddenly have to sell now and don't have the time to have their boat listed by a broker for a year or however long it takes to get it sold for the highest price the market will bare.

Keep an eye out in Ebay, Craigslist and sources other than brokerage listings.