Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

[montenido]

Okay folks,

Please talk me back from the edge. I have asked for a small price adjustment ($2500) based on a good number of blisters found during the haulout yesterday. The seller has flat refused, saying that I should have expected that since the boat has not been painted in 8+ years.

I really like the boat and it is just what I am looking for. The price is even good. However, I don't like the attitude. I am really struggling not to threaten to walk away from the deal, and to really walk. I would end up being the loser, but that is how I feel right now.

Please talk some sense to me!!!!!!!

Thanks, Bill

[terminalcitygrl]

"I would end up being the loser..."

So it's simple then. Do you want to be the loser?

[Cheechako]

How big a boat are we talking? Has it been on the market long? etc etc..... a bad case of blisters is a PITA.

[zeta]

If it doesn't feel right--walk...if other problems arise you will beat yourself up over it. I hate sellers that think I owe them something, I own them nothing, especially my money.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by montenido

I have asked for a small price adjustment ($2500) based on a good number of blisters found during the haulout yesterday. The seller has flat refused, saying that I should have expected that since the boat has not been painted in 8+ years.

(If the hull is prone to osmosis, and no-one's done anything about it for 8 years... what else have they deliberately ignored?)

Not alot to go on, but from what you've just said, here is how I see it:

- if you've already been offered a good price, and your surveyor agrees it's a good price, blisters and all, then your further hammering about the blisters might be a bit too far to push the seller

- if the blisters are a new discovery during the inspection process, and you have the information that backs up your request for a further deduction (eg surveyor's recommendation, or a quote for fixing blistering) then press your case, and if there's no give, you have to walk.

Walking away from a deal is not 'losing'. You're only a loser if you're forced to do something you'll later regret.

[kthoennes]

We came very close to buying an express style boat about three years ago. Paid $400+ for they survey, had the loan ready to go, everything except one survey issue was resolved. The outdrives wouldn't go up, the hydraulic pump was shot. On a $30k purchase the seller wouldn't budge the $800 to fix the drives. We got annoyed, he got annoyed, and we walked away. (How could he run a boat with outdrives that won't come up?). A year later we bought the Carver, best choice and best deal ever, couldn't be happier. There are other fish (and boats) in the sea. Don't get attached. Shopping is half the fun.

[montenido]

Here is the boat, a CSY 44. Nice boat for what I want. our agreed price is $85k.
1979 CSY center cockpit Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Bill

[kthoennes]

Wow, nice looking. Has character, classic look, elegance. That's rare lately. Tough decision. $2500 on an $85k deal - well, I suppose at some point - oh heck, I shouldn't presume to dish any advice, I'm a sucker for those bowsprit boards.

[Tom1340]

Bill,
Nice boat in the photos. Assuming the rest of the boat checks out fine, I can see why you are struggling. As a buyer who was just in your position, I have learned a lot about blisters, and they are not all created equal. If yours are candidates for spot repair, I'd forget the $2.5k and go for it. If yours are an indication of a progressive problem (poor bonding of surrounding mat, cloudy laminate at bottom of blister), I'd be inclined to walk.
Here is a useful link on blisters Hull Blisters on Boats and Yachts - by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor Also, West systems has an interesting bulletin specific to evaluating and repairing blisters.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...Prevention.pdf

I'm offering my comments in the spirit of the "blind leading the blind". I am still boatless, having passed on a "blister boat" two weeks ago.
Good luck
Tom

[sepeteus]

Originally Posted by Tom1340

Bill,
Nice boat in the photos. Assuming the rest of the boat checks out fine, I can see why you are struggling. As a buyer who was just in your position, I have learned a lot about blisters, and they are not all created equal. If yours are candidates for spot repair, I'd forget the $2.5k and go for it. If yours are an indication of a progressive problem (poor bonding of surrounding mat, cloudy laminate at bottom of blister), I'd be inclined to walk.
Here is a useful link on blisters Hull Blisters on Boats and Yachts - by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor Also, West systems has an interesting bulletin specific to evaluating and repairing blisters.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...Prevention.pdf

I'm offering my comments in the spirit of the "blind leading the blind". I am still boatless, having passed on a "blister boat" two weeks ago.
Good luck
Tom

Agree with you Tom. I had local blisters on my Beneteau around through hull skinfittings and had the fixed easy. If the blisters are like general type and randomly around the hull, I would not just walk but run and fast! Good luck and please get it right!!!!!!

[terminalcitygrl]

I just checked in on this thread again and realize my comment doesn't read perhaps in the tongue-in-cheek way I meant it. This seems to be a purchase you've agonized a lot about and having not in fact bought a boat yet meself, I can only imagine how difficult a decision it is. And 100k is no small change, that is life changing money in my books. Perhaps you need more info or more time? Whatever you decide it will be the right decision for you. Good luck

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Tom1340

Bill, Nice boat in the photos. Assuming the rest of the boat checks out fine, I can see why you are struggling.

Hmm, same here because that is nice. Seller has dropped 15% and now you're asking for 17.5%.

Bill you might have to accept its an $85k boat. The alternative is more time and money to find another one, with another survey and associated costs.

Pete

[offline]

I have almost given up on more expensive older boats because of this..

We can easily get $400K for a new boat but not one lender is willing to finance older boats. Walked away from a very nice Nauticat 36 because of this.

It doesn't matter what the term length was.. they just don't want to deal with old assets. That is just the way it is.

Originally Posted by JRM

If only. Just got my last loan rejection letter for the older boat I want. Funny, they'll happily give me $200K for a newer boat, but not $50K for an old one worth double that (and with twice the down payment). At the end of five years they'll both be worth around $100K.

Maybe I should have asked for longer than a five year term...

JRM

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by montenido

Okay folks,

Please talk me back from the edge. I have asked for a small price adjustment ($2500) based on a good number of blisters found during the haulout yesterday. The seller has flat refused, saying that I should have expected that since the boat has not been painted in 8+ years.

I really like the boat and it is just what I am looking for. The price is even good. However, I don't like the attitude. I am really struggling not to threaten to walk away from the deal, and to really walk. I would end up being the loser, but that is how I feel right now.

Please talk some sense to me!!!!!!!

Thanks, Bill

Bill - The question is where are the blisters and how many? What did the surveyor say and do you have an estimate to fix?

Then the question is what you will actually do about it? Will you fix them now or live with them for a time. My boat has a patch of blisters above the coping that have been there 5 years and I am living with them. I do not have any below the waterline which would concern me in a different way. If you are talking about a small patch of blisters above the waterline that you will defer to some future repainting date then I think it is a bit of a red herring. If you are planning to refinish, say in a year, taking care of minor blisters is inconsequential in terms of cost.

If you are talking about blisters below the water line that you don't know the extent of you could be talking $10k to fix.

The third question is what else did you find in the survey. In photos she presents very well. The only things I question are the nav table electronics looks messy but may be great functionally. The engine looks well weathered but that could just be cosmetics. The alternator looks pretty new. Other wiring evident in photos looks appropriate and well tailed. Bilges look clean and dry. How is the sail wardrobe? Anything pop up on rigging?

The reason I ask these leads to question four. What do you have in the way of contingencies. If it were me I would like to have 20-25% for the personalizations and the gotchas that will invariably pop up. A correlary question is do you hae a list of things you want to do to the boat? New mattresses, cushion covers, electrtonics?

It is a good looking boat and you are right to question. It's a lot of money but the seller has come down quite a bit. It looks to be a great boat at $85k.

Do you have $20k to take care of surprises?

- blister repair
- sail replacement
- some wood rot that didn't turn up on survey
- engine craps out

Not trying to scare you but as you know after writing the $85k check you just get to start the monthly payments. Need to calibrate yourself.

Use the force Luke and have no fear...

[David_Old_Jersey]

If I was the Vendor and a buyer only wanted to knock $2,500 off for hull Blisters (whether he already knew about them or not) I would take your arm off!

But having said that, if he thinks he can get a better deal with someone else - then that is his call to make, not yours. He may be right. or he might not be .

The questions I would ask is at $85k with Blisters is:-

a) the boat still good enough for you
b) is the price still in the ballpark (for a boat with Blisters)

Personally I would be less concerned about the $2,500 than what the cost to fix (or not fix) the hull blisters would be....and for that knowing the extent would be the key. A survey will only get you so far, no substitute for an angle grinder! (but of course that not a pre-purchase event!). IMO $2,500 would easily cover a patch, forget and keep fingers crossed approach (and nothing wrong with that. well, potentially not!) especially if can throw in some DIY, but that figure would barely scratch the surface of a full on yard repair (hull peel etc). The good news is that you have a heads up in advance of writing the cheque, so have time to ponder carefully. Use that time to ponder carefully!

I can understand that the Vendors attitude is a turn off, but on the basis that you will likely never see him again then does not really matter. Having said that I have walked away from plenty of deals over the years (primarily not boats) simply because I thought the Vendor was a Class A..........as IME that can be an indicator that not all is as it seems. but often enough probably simply that they are a Class A both as a Vendor or not Some people just too much hard work to deal with .

In this case, given that you are under contract - why not say that you are still interested in the boat, but given the Blister thing is new to you (and whilst not unexpected on an older boat, was not expected when you calculated and made the offer - how could it be!) that you need a bit more time to research how much of a problem (if any) it is for you - including to price up any work required (if any). And get an extention to the contract in writing (maybe throw in that you don't mind the boat being put back on the market (as if it ever really left!), but nonetheless you still being under contract means still have first option - if you can agree a price, original or less).

The idea being is to play nice but nonetheless make it clear (even without spelling it out) that you could be coming back with an offer that is even less. or withdrawing from the sale completely. if he has half a brain he should understand your position (even if not like it). and unless he has folks queing up to buy he would be an idiot to say no (but there be plenty of idiots around ). Might make him a bit more willing to do a deal now (if that still works for you), or in a few more weeks. I appreciate that this may sound "wrong" to those who favour the "shovel cash to a Vendor until he says stop" approach to buying boats, but I favour the "Not buying someone else's problems, at least not unknown" approach.

Anyway, let us all know what happens.




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